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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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welcome back to the UFO Rabbit Hole

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podcast I'm your host Kelly Chase

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first of all I just want to thank

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everyone who reached out with your

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thoughts and feedback after the last

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interview with Dr Diana welsh-fasulka it

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was such a privilege to be able to share

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that conversation with you all and I'm

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thrilled to see how deeply it resonated

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because so many people expressed an

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interest in Plato's Cave specifically

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and in a more philosophical approach to

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UFOs in general I thought it was the

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perfect time to bring in my friend Dr

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James Madden to dive into these topics a

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little further

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Dr Madden is Professor of philosophy at

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Benedictine University he's a martial

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artist Fitness coach and philosopher

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with a particular interest in the

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philosophy of Mind Aesthetics philosophy

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of religion aristotelianism and

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phenomenology if you'll recall from the

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last episode Diana mentioned Dr Madden

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is someone who shared her spooky

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interpretation of the cave

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I first met Jim when he was a speaker in

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one of Diana's classes over the summer

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on this subject and I really enjoyed

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learning from him he has a really

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coherent way of placing the cave within

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its proper context both within Plato's

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Republic and within its historical

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context that opens up these ideas in

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inspiring and challenging ways so that's

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where we'll start with an hour-long deep

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dive into Plato's Cave and what it

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implies for the nature of both reality

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and the UFO phenomenon and then in the

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second half of the interview we'll turn

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to Dr Madden's latest philosophical work

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with regard to the phenomenon including

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what Heidegger reveals to us about the

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life and work of Godfather of modern

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ufology Jacques filet what Aristotle's

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natural theology suggests about the

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potential nature of non-human

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intelligence and how that work is being

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continued in the modern day by Dr

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Jeffrey kreipel of Rice University

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and finally we'll explore Dr Madden's

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fascinating hypothesis for the origins

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of the UFO phenomenon through the

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concept of the umvelt I hope you all

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enjoy this conversation as much as I

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enjoyed having it this is my longest

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episode to date because we were having

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such a blast that I completely lost

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track of time and when I went back to

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listen again there just wasn't anything

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that I wanted to cut out if you enjoy

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waiting out into the deep end of the UFO

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phenomenon this episode is for you

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and before we begin I'll mention that as

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always you can find all of the books

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articles and resources mentioned in this

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interview linked up in the episode

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description so that you can explore

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these ideas further in particular I

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suggest that you check out Dr Madden's

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articles on the topics we'll be covering

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today they're excellent and if you find

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yourself wanting to dive more deeply

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into the ideas of Heidegger's the

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question concerning technology Dr Madden

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also has a great online course that you

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can take and I'll link that up as well

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all right let's get to it here's my

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interview with Dr James Madden

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so Jim thank you so much for being here

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with me today I am so excited to talk to

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you you know you were one of the first

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people I actually thought about when we

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were going through the last episode

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partly because Dr pasoka mentioned you

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in terms of also having kind of a spooky

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interpretation of Plato's Cave but also

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because I know I'm a little bit familiar

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with your work and with Tyler's

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protocols and you kind of take this

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two-pronged approach with both Fitness

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and philosophy and I just I would love

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to hear what your thoughts on on Tyler's

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Protocols are based on your just your

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background yeah you know

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um

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I am like just in the like even before I

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met Diana or heard of Tyler or went down

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this Rabbit Hole as it were

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looking at like what those Protocols are

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and looking like just my daily habits

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it's really close it's very it's very

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close like I think the only thing I

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don't excuse me I I drink too much

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caffeine I think because I think

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caffeine's out right yeah but in terms

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of

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obviously like uh like rigorous physical

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exercise that's definitely part of my

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life I I eat a very strict diet uh I um

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I I have I have a pretty dedicated

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meditation practice that I do

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um you know a lot of that stuff the only

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thing I think I'm missing on is

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um is in fact the uh is the caffeine now

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maybe that's why I haven't invented a

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world changing device yet I need to give

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up the caffeine that's the trade but I

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will say this is

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um I have found like like in in my those

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that's all like habits that came to me

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you know kind of accumulated over life

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and they came together in in middle age

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since I've been doing that I do have

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that that almost like download kind of

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experience

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um like I tend to write things in fits

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now or I'll just like sit down and like

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like

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you know 100 page manuscripts will come

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to me and stuff like that and maybe go

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somewhere maybe it doesn't but but a lot

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of what Diane's talking about there

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really does resonate with me yeah

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that's very cool yeah I think

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so I would love to know I know that

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you're very excited about the topic of

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UFOs right now which I think is it's

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wonderful and I just love to know how

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did you get into this from from you know

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your academic background and what is it

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about this topic that like feels really

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relevant to you right now sure

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so okay I'm uh I am 49 years old so this

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marks me as like the exact middle of the

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Gen X generation right okay so I and I

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am like a cliche gen xer if you got to

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know me okay and as a cliche gen xer uh

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when my kids got to high school age it

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was required that I would show them the

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X-Files okay so the summer of 2021 uh

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you know my my kids and I are binge

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Watching The X-Files okay

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and um that's also right when they're

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the big Pentagon press conference came

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where you know suddenly it got okay for

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us to think that the UFO thing was a

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thing right it had been building for me

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I had like been I I had been a Rogan fan

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and I'd seen Christopher Mellon on the

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Rogan show and um I think David fraver

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and

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so but that summer I'm watching it was

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the last season I think it's the 2018

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X-Files reboot which is maybe not very

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good but

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um and there's a there's some episodes

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where you've got UFO disclosures going

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on with you know uh uh Scully going on

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like conservative uh cable news TV shows

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to do this there's a pandemic

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um there's there's questions about weird

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you know vaccines all this stuff

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and I found myself sitting there

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thinking like okay what was Fox mold or

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wrong about

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it was it was this incredible thing

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where you had this show that was made in

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2018 and you would think that it was

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something that had been made after the

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fact of the year or two that we had just

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lived through okay now right after that

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I you know I heard Lou Alessandro for

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the first time on on the threes

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everything podcast and I thought this is

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absolutely incredible and it raised okay

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so one there's just the issue of are

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these UFOs real or not okay and I think

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that ship has just sailed okay there's

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something going on here okay

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um as I put it the UFO realism is not an

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option okay and then but then there's

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but then there's these other strange

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issues that come up that are like really

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I think philosophically rich and

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important so for instance like just

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using the X-File

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um example so you have an event that

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seems predictive of like a fictional

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event that seems predictive of what's

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actually happening not exactly right

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okay but there's odd symmetries there so

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what is that is that because

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you know someone has been conspiring

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with the pop culture to prepare us for

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something that that has been said right

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okay is it because there's a collective

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unconscious ala Jung that is like

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pushing us out in front of ourselves

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prepare us right there's all these

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questions that come up there that I

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think make are like force us to ask like

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what are our relationship to the reality

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is and like who or who is not running

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that that came up and I just thought

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this is just dying for philosophical

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reflection and I can't believe no one's

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doing it right does that does that make

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sense yeah absolutely it does absolutely

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does it's so interesting the things that

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you know pull this topic into the

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Forefront for someone because it's

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always something a little bit different

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but once you see it you can't unsee it

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exactly exactly and and then and then of

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course what then what happens is

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because I am I am an academic so like

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okay so how do you do this like how am I

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going to experience a scholar and like

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yes I try to find out who was

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the most kind of scholarly respectable

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reliable person to go to this and it was

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Jacques filet and so then I just binge

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read a bunch of Jacques valet stuff and

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that and that's what turns me on to

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Diana paselka's work and

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then here we go yeah yeah the label red

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pill you pretty hard yes

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so I was really excited to have you on

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to talk about

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um the cave and then I found out there's

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all sorts of one other wonderful work

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that you're doing that I we're gonna

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dive into also but I I love to start

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there I think that with this last

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episode

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um I wasn't planning on doing another

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interview on this but it just people

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were responding so well to the cave and

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you know even the people who were like

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this is really cool but I don't know why

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we're talking about it and so I really

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the cave is one of those things that

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once I kind of had that moment where I

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started reading it more in the way that

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you and Diana fasulka read it it feels

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like it now almost feels like the most

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important thing I've read and it keeps

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coming back and it keeps being Central

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to my work into my thinking and I would

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just love to hear your thoughts on like

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what what is it about the cave this

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thing that was written you know like

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almost 2500 years ago what is it about

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it that feels so relevant and so urgent

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and that speaks to people now the way

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that it does sure sure do you mind if I

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maybe start with with kind of a

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background uh you know on on Plato's

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Republic so then we kind of like situate

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it in in that yeah actually it's

275
00:10:39,470 --> 00:10:37,260
absolutely start wherever you would like

276
00:10:41,150 --> 00:10:39,480
so and Diana mentioned some of this in

277
00:10:43,310 --> 00:10:41,160
the earlier interview but uh I think

278
00:10:44,509 --> 00:10:43,320
it's important to note that

279
00:10:47,030 --> 00:10:44,519
um

280
00:10:49,490 --> 00:10:47,040
okay so Plato is not a character in the

281
00:10:52,430 --> 00:10:49,500
dialogue okay uh

282
00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:52,440
and but he puts his brothers in it okay

283
00:10:55,730 --> 00:10:53,760
so there's a weird thing he's done right

284
00:10:57,230 --> 00:10:55,740
off the bat he's present but he's absent

285
00:10:59,389 --> 00:10:57,240
in the dialogue his brothers are there

286
00:11:00,769 --> 00:10:59,399
but on him so glaucon and adamantis are

287
00:11:04,190 --> 00:11:00,779
brothers maybe uncles but they think

288
00:11:06,410 --> 00:11:04,200
they're probably as brothers okay

289
00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:06,420
um so that that there's that also you

290
00:11:10,670 --> 00:11:09,480
know Plato is he sets it at a time we

291
00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:10,680
know because there's a festival that's

292
00:11:13,970 --> 00:11:11,760
mentioned and we know when that Festival

293
00:11:15,829 --> 00:11:13,980
happened it's like kind of during a a

294
00:11:19,190 --> 00:11:15,839
time out period during the Peloponnesian

295
00:11:20,269 --> 00:11:19,200
War okay so Athens had been doing pretty

296
00:11:21,889 --> 00:11:20,279
well

297
00:11:23,090 --> 00:11:21,899
um and then there's a leg and then but

298
00:11:24,829 --> 00:11:23,100
we know because he's writing this 50

299
00:11:27,290 --> 00:11:24,839
years after the fact it's going to end

300
00:11:29,329 --> 00:11:27,300
really badly for Athens in this war okay

301
00:11:31,250 --> 00:11:29,339
and

302
00:11:33,530 --> 00:11:31,260
um many of the characters in the

303
00:11:35,810 --> 00:11:33,540
dialogue will be dead by the time

304
00:11:38,150 --> 00:11:35,820
Plato's writing this and not by natural

305
00:11:39,470 --> 00:11:38,160
causes okay so Plato's brothers are

306
00:11:41,690 --> 00:11:39,480
gonna be dead

307
00:11:43,850 --> 00:11:41,700
there's another character uh in the

308
00:11:45,470 --> 00:11:43,860
dialogue that they some people think his

309
00:11:46,910 --> 00:11:45,480
brothers put a hit on

310
00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:46,920
like kind of

311
00:11:52,970 --> 00:11:49,680
political warlord Bronze Age violence

312
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:52,980
right so and in Socrates the Socrates is

313
00:11:56,810 --> 00:11:54,959
execution may have been payback for that

314
00:11:59,210 --> 00:11:56,820
hit because they're all kind of in a

315
00:12:00,829 --> 00:11:59,220
faction okay so Plato and here's the

316
00:12:03,410 --> 00:12:00,839
point is

317
00:12:05,150 --> 00:12:03,420
the book in many ways is an expression

318
00:12:07,190 --> 00:12:05,160
of a kind of pessimism

319
00:12:10,069 --> 00:12:07,200
like Plato knows

320
00:12:11,690 --> 00:12:10,079
where this all goes at the level of

321
00:12:13,009 --> 00:12:11,700
politics is going to end badly for

322
00:12:15,050 --> 00:12:13,019
everybody concerned

323
00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:15,060
okay so there's this kind of time out

324
00:12:17,930 --> 00:12:16,140
here we're going to like try to reason

325
00:12:19,130 --> 00:12:17,940
our way to things but we know in the end

326
00:12:20,389 --> 00:12:19,140
it's not going to work because these

327
00:12:22,970 --> 00:12:20,399
guys are going to kill each other okay

328
00:12:25,790 --> 00:12:22,980
do you see that yeah okay another thing

329
00:12:27,050 --> 00:12:25,800
to note about the book is um yeah you

330
00:12:28,910 --> 00:12:27,060
have to be careful too because like you

331
00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:28,920
know Plato wrote Dialogue where this is

332
00:12:31,550 --> 00:12:30,000
written as a dialogue and we know the

333
00:12:32,750 --> 00:12:31,560
Plato probably wrote other treatises and

334
00:12:35,090 --> 00:12:32,760
things like that so he had other

335
00:12:36,889 --> 00:12:35,100
literary options so anytime someone

336
00:12:39,350 --> 00:12:36,899
chooses to write that way that is

337
00:12:40,430 --> 00:12:39,360
telling us something right and so we

338
00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:40,440
have to like we have to take the

339
00:12:44,150 --> 00:12:42,480
literary aspects of the Republic as

340
00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:44,160
philosophically informative they're not

341
00:12:50,690 --> 00:12:47,700
accidental to it okay the book is you

342
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:50,700
know shall I say book ended right in

343
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:53,040
death okay so like I think you have to

344
00:12:57,230 --> 00:12:55,200
see that that the the Republic is about

345
00:13:00,350 --> 00:12:57,240
the problem of death in some sense of

346
00:13:02,569 --> 00:13:00,360
death okay so the the it starts out you

347
00:13:05,690 --> 00:13:02,579
know the guys are in a city outside of

348
00:13:08,090 --> 00:13:05,700
the city so I think that's important and

349
00:13:10,610 --> 00:13:08,100
um they're they're going to stay for a

350
00:13:11,690 --> 00:13:10,620
festival the Socrates and students and

351
00:13:14,150 --> 00:13:11,700
they're going to stay at this guy's

352
00:13:15,530 --> 00:13:14,160
house named kefis or cephas who's an

353
00:13:17,150 --> 00:13:15,540
older guy

354
00:13:18,829 --> 00:13:17,160
and they're asking him you know doesn't

355
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,839
it suck to be old he's like oh it's not

356
00:13:23,090 --> 00:13:21,360
so bad I'm not burdened by like you know

357
00:13:24,949 --> 00:13:23,100
like carnal desire and all that anymore

358
00:13:26,269 --> 00:13:24,959
and they and they're like aren't you

359
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:26,279
afraid of your death and he says well

360
00:13:29,569 --> 00:13:27,600
I'm not afraid of my death because I've

361
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:29,579
lived a just life okay

362
00:13:32,090 --> 00:13:30,720
and they ask them what do you mean by

363
00:13:34,610 --> 00:13:32,100
that he's like I gotta go to bed I'm old

364
00:13:36,050 --> 00:13:34,620
okay so he won't tell me so then that

365
00:13:37,730 --> 00:13:36,060
occasions the question of what is

366
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:37,740
Justice which becomes the surface level

367
00:13:41,569 --> 00:13:39,360
question of the entire book but note

368
00:13:44,750 --> 00:13:41,579
that is subsidiary to the question of

369
00:13:47,269 --> 00:13:44,760
death okay like why like why are we not

370
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:47,279
worried about our death well we're only

371
00:13:50,690 --> 00:13:48,720
asking after Justice because we're

372
00:13:52,670 --> 00:13:50,700
worried about death okay

373
00:13:56,030 --> 00:13:52,680
I think that's important right and the

374
00:13:59,569 --> 00:13:56,040
book ends with a myth about death about

375
00:14:01,610 --> 00:13:59,579
the afterlife okay and oddly also Plato

376
00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:01,620
throughout the book has Socrates say

377
00:14:08,210 --> 00:14:04,380
part of education is to tell people

378
00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:08,220
literally good lies about the afterlife

379
00:14:12,230 --> 00:14:10,260
and he ends with a good lie about the

380
00:14:16,069 --> 00:14:12,240
afterlife But but so do note

381
00:14:17,870 --> 00:14:16,079
the book The Narrative is in between to

382
00:14:19,190 --> 00:14:17,880
a question and an answer about death

383
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:19,200
okay so I think we have to when we

384
00:14:23,210 --> 00:14:21,360
whenever we approach Republic we have to

385
00:14:25,310 --> 00:14:23,220
remember that that is being unto death

386
00:14:26,690 --> 00:14:25,320
in like hard to hearing terms really is

387
00:14:27,530 --> 00:14:26,700
the subject matter of the book even

388
00:14:29,690 --> 00:14:27,540
though

389
00:14:32,329 --> 00:14:29,700
the question that gets pursued is

390
00:14:33,470 --> 00:14:32,339
Justice right because the old man says

391
00:14:35,389 --> 00:14:33,480
I'm not afraid of death because I've

392
00:14:36,889 --> 00:14:35,399
lived a just life okay

393
00:14:39,110 --> 00:14:36,899
and then that occasion's like well what

394
00:14:41,090 --> 00:14:39,120
would it be to be just all right

395
00:14:43,490 --> 00:14:41,100
so then the question is okay what does

396
00:14:46,430 --> 00:14:43,500
it mean to be just and

397
00:14:49,069 --> 00:14:46,440
it's asked about initially about in the

398
00:14:50,810 --> 00:14:49,079
individual human being okay and the

399
00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:50,820
claim is though well it's just too hard

400
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:52,079
to understand the individuals so we're

401
00:14:55,790 --> 00:14:53,279
going to talk about it at a political

402
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:55,800
level all right so throughout the book

403
00:14:59,930 --> 00:14:58,320
there's a parallel going on here right

404
00:15:01,670 --> 00:14:59,940
we're talking about death by talking

405
00:15:04,370 --> 00:15:01,680
about Justice okay then even within that

406
00:15:06,769 --> 00:15:04,380
we're talking about Justice in the

407
00:15:09,949 --> 00:15:06,779
individual Human by talking about it in

408
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:09,959
the political unit okay so note the As

409
00:15:14,269 --> 00:15:12,720
Above So Below thing that's going on

410
00:15:15,470 --> 00:15:14,279
um throughout throughout the dialogue

411
00:15:17,449 --> 00:15:15,480
okay

412
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:17,459
all right so I

413
00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:18,959
little background there all right now

414
00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:21,120
one I think an important episode that

415
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:23,220
happens in leading up to the cave

416
00:15:27,350 --> 00:15:24,959
allegory

417
00:15:29,810 --> 00:15:27,360
is at a certain point Socrates has given

418
00:15:33,230 --> 00:15:29,820
his account of what Justice is in the

419
00:15:34,730 --> 00:15:33,240
city okay well let me rewind

420
00:15:38,269 --> 00:15:34,740
so we're going to investigate Justice in

421
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,279
the city okay and uh Socrates then says

422
00:15:44,090 --> 00:15:40,320
okay how do cities get formed all right

423
00:15:47,030 --> 00:15:44,100
and we then get a natural account of how

424
00:15:49,610 --> 00:15:47,040
cities are formed okay and it's based on

425
00:15:52,430 --> 00:15:49,620
just simple self-interest like I

426
00:15:55,490 --> 00:15:52,440
you know I've got wheat you know Kelly's

427
00:15:57,290 --> 00:15:55,500
got cattle I'm not good at cow uh uh

428
00:15:58,730 --> 00:15:57,300
cattle Kelly's not good at wheat so we

429
00:16:01,610 --> 00:15:58,740
happily have to depend on each other in

430
00:16:03,050 --> 00:16:01,620
exchange okay and Socrates then says

431
00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:03,060
though sooner or later though like

432
00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:05,100
Kelly's gonna want more than what she

433
00:16:08,269 --> 00:16:06,959
can get naturally so there's gonna be

434
00:16:09,769 --> 00:16:08,279
cheating and Jim's going to want more

435
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:09,779
there's gonna be cheating he calls it

436
00:16:16,129 --> 00:16:12,240
there's gonna desire to do better okay

437
00:16:18,590 --> 00:16:16,139
and he he argues that this means every

438
00:16:21,590 --> 00:16:18,600
natural founding of a city will end

439
00:16:23,629 --> 00:16:21,600
badly okay it will end badly okay

440
00:16:25,189 --> 00:16:23,639
because it seems like we have to be

441
00:16:26,449 --> 00:16:25,199
better than we are to get ourselves off

442
00:16:28,670 --> 00:16:26,459
the ground on the right track in the

443
00:16:30,350 --> 00:16:28,680
first place okay now keep in mind he's

444
00:16:33,050 --> 00:16:30,360
saying that about cities and he's saying

445
00:16:35,389 --> 00:16:33,060
that about individual humans okay that

446
00:16:37,910 --> 00:16:35,399
like any anything left to its own

447
00:16:39,769 --> 00:16:37,920
natural devices is going to end up

448
00:16:42,889 --> 00:16:39,779
falling to the cycle of violence and

449
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:42,899
greed and thereby collapse upon itself

450
00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:44,880
okay

451
00:16:47,810 --> 00:16:46,620
um so natural foundings can't happen I

452
00:16:49,970 --> 00:16:47,820
want you to bookmark that because it

453
00:16:51,949 --> 00:16:49,980
needs to be important for my take on the

454
00:16:53,689 --> 00:16:51,959
Republic and why it's relevant to the

455
00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:53,699
phenomenon okay

456
00:16:58,009 --> 00:16:55,980
all right so at a certain point

457
00:17:00,470 --> 00:16:58,019
later the dialogue Socrates has given us

458
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:00,480
this like this hypothesis or I guess

459
00:17:04,549 --> 00:17:02,639
he's going to say it's it is it is what

460
00:17:05,390 --> 00:17:04,559
the the ideal city would be like and

461
00:17:07,130 --> 00:17:05,400
it's

462
00:17:08,809 --> 00:17:07,140
you know we're gonna we're gonna

463
00:17:10,730 --> 00:17:08,819
um it's gonna be utterly hierarchical

464
00:17:11,990 --> 00:17:10,740
right you're gonna have a philosopher

465
00:17:14,329 --> 00:17:12,000
king is going to run it right and you're

466
00:17:16,010 --> 00:17:14,339
gonna have this Guardian class of

467
00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:16,020
um of soldiers who are gonna like

468
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:18,240
enforce the law very very harshly on the

469
00:17:21,470 --> 00:17:19,919
populace and the populace will you know

470
00:17:23,210 --> 00:17:21,480
they'll be Artisans they'll produce and

471
00:17:24,590 --> 00:17:23,220
everybody will stay in their lanes and

472
00:17:25,850 --> 00:17:24,600
that's what why we're all we're gonna

473
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:25,860
like not gonna get greedy and all this

474
00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:28,559
okay and the the things that he brings

475
00:17:32,570 --> 00:17:30,240
into it are like well

476
00:17:34,370 --> 00:17:32,580
um we're going to decide marriage by

477
00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:34,380
Lottery okay but it's really going to be

478
00:17:38,990 --> 00:17:35,640
a rigged Lottery because we're basically

479
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:39,000
breeding the master race right and

480
00:17:41,870 --> 00:17:40,559
um you know when you're when you have

481
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:41,880
children they're going to be taken away

482
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:43,200
from you and they're going to be raised

483
00:17:48,350 --> 00:17:45,600
in the Commons right and

484
00:17:50,210 --> 00:17:48,360
um he heaps and heaps and heaps all

485
00:17:52,370 --> 00:17:50,220
these like really heavy things that are

486
00:17:53,870 --> 00:17:52,380
gonna have to happen right and at one

487
00:17:55,909 --> 00:17:53,880
point I think it's glaucon says Socrates

488
00:17:58,130 --> 00:17:55,919
that's that I can't believe that it's

489
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:58,140
it's no way like No One's Gonna go for

490
00:18:04,970 --> 00:18:01,440
that all right and Socrates reply is

491
00:18:06,110 --> 00:18:04,980
well it's the ideal I'm not saying it's

492
00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:06,120
going to happen I'm not even going to

493
00:18:10,190 --> 00:18:07,860
say he even says I'm not even saying

494
00:18:12,770 --> 00:18:10,200
it's possible I'm saying it's the ideal

495
00:18:14,690 --> 00:18:12,780
and he replies and he says look if I

496
00:18:16,610 --> 00:18:14,700
painted for you the most beautiful human

497
00:18:18,350 --> 00:18:16,620
image I could give you

498
00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:18,360
and you said well yeah but no one's that

499
00:18:21,470 --> 00:18:19,860
beautiful it wouldn't mean it's not the

500
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:21,480
ideal of beauty it just means it can't

501
00:18:25,250 --> 00:18:24,000
be done okay so once again it's going

502
00:18:28,370 --> 00:18:25,260
back to my point about the Deep

503
00:18:30,890 --> 00:18:28,380
pessimism of this of this book like both

504
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:30,900
politically and personally it it seems

505
00:18:36,169 --> 00:18:33,120
like this thing we need to get to is

506
00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:36,179
really not within our natural grasp

507
00:18:41,870 --> 00:18:39,120
right okay right all right now

508
00:18:43,190 --> 00:18:41,880
uh so and I'm going you know went very

509
00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:43,200
fast in the book and there's much more

510
00:18:46,370 --> 00:18:44,520
else going on here but I want to keep it

511
00:18:49,730 --> 00:18:46,380
relevant to what we're going to discuss

512
00:18:52,130 --> 00:18:49,740
so then we go to the algorithm and

513
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:52,140
um the question of how we educate the

514
00:18:56,330 --> 00:18:54,240
the philosopher king has come up okay

515
00:18:57,890 --> 00:18:56,340
the person who's gonna run the city

516
00:18:59,870 --> 00:18:57,900
and

517
00:19:01,850 --> 00:18:59,880
um we're given kind of a very formal

518
00:19:03,770 --> 00:19:01,860
version of that we're gonna and then now

519
00:19:04,970 --> 00:19:03,780
we're giving an allegory to like help us

520
00:19:07,130 --> 00:19:04,980
understand it better but I think there's

521
00:19:09,710 --> 00:19:07,140
more going on there all right

522
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:09,720
so the allegory of the cave goes and I'm

523
00:19:12,169 --> 00:19:10,799
sure a lot of people are familiar with

524
00:19:14,450 --> 00:19:12,179
this is you have a bunch of prisoners

525
00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:14,460
and they're chained down and uh they're

526
00:19:18,529 --> 00:19:16,140
looking at images projected on the wall

527
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:18,539
of a cave and that's all they've ever

528
00:19:21,169 --> 00:19:19,679
seen so that's all they've ever known

529
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:21,179
okay and they don't know the difference

530
00:19:24,770 --> 00:19:22,559
I think that's important to know is like

531
00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:24,780
that the people who are chained up don't

532
00:19:29,330 --> 00:19:27,120
even know there's a problem okay it's

533
00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:29,340
all right and

534
00:19:32,570 --> 00:19:30,480
um one of them becomes liberated

535
00:19:34,010 --> 00:19:32,580
interestingly we're never told how that

536
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:34,020
Liberation happens but one of them

537
00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:36,720
becomes liberated turns around and sees

538
00:19:41,810 --> 00:19:39,600
that that what they thought was reality

539
00:19:43,789 --> 00:19:41,820
were just Shadows of Puppets

540
00:19:46,370 --> 00:19:43,799
that are being held up by other people I

541
00:19:48,350 --> 00:19:46,380
think that's important uh by a fire

542
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:48,360
that's casting light on the wall okay

543
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:51,840
and so this person is liberated

544
00:19:55,789 --> 00:19:54,000
you know crawls out of the cave and it's

545
00:19:57,230 --> 00:19:55,799
like very very hard it's arduous when it

546
00:19:59,270 --> 00:19:57,240
goes away he makes a lot of tamps and

547
00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:59,280
has to start over and eventually the

548
00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:01,200
free prisoner gets out and it's the

549
00:20:04,490 --> 00:20:02,880
light outside the cave is too bright to

550
00:20:07,070 --> 00:20:04,500
see it hurts too much so he has to go

551
00:20:09,890 --> 00:20:07,080
back in and he eventually gets out where

552
00:20:11,450 --> 00:20:09,900
he can like see real objects and then

553
00:20:13,190 --> 00:20:11,460
eventually you know works up to where

554
00:20:14,510 --> 00:20:13,200
can kind of Glimpse at the Sun but can't

555
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:14,520
stay there you just kind of look at the

556
00:20:17,210 --> 00:20:15,840
Sun and look away otherwise it'll blind

557
00:20:20,690 --> 00:20:17,220
you okay

558
00:20:23,690 --> 00:20:20,700
and the the freed the liberated person

559
00:20:25,970 --> 00:20:23,700
goes back in the cave and says hey guys

560
00:20:28,070 --> 00:20:25,980
you're living a lie you're you're living

561
00:20:30,770 --> 00:20:28,080
a caricature of things

562
00:20:33,710 --> 00:20:30,780
and uh he's persistent about it and they

563
00:20:36,650 --> 00:20:33,720
kill him okay uh I think that's that's

564
00:20:38,210 --> 00:20:36,660
important because this is all a not so

565
00:20:40,789 --> 00:20:38,220
thinned

566
00:20:43,130 --> 00:20:40,799
you know uh reference to the actual life

567
00:20:44,890 --> 00:20:43,140
of Socrates right okay that basically

568
00:20:48,590 --> 00:20:44,900
you know Socrates what did he do he he

569
00:20:50,750 --> 00:20:48,600
came to see that like the given athens's

570
00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:50,760
defeat in the Peloponnesian War given

571
00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:52,080
what he saw was like their their

572
00:20:55,549 --> 00:20:53,700
cultural collapse

573
00:20:57,350 --> 00:20:55,559
came to think that everybody was like

574
00:20:59,690 --> 00:20:57,360
chasing Illusions and there were there

575
00:21:02,510 --> 00:20:59,700
was a there was another truth he dared

576
00:21:04,850 --> 00:21:02,520
to speak it and then he you know and he

577
00:21:07,150 --> 00:21:04,860
was kind of like snotty and he gets

578
00:21:09,710 --> 00:21:07,160
himself killed number okay all right now

579
00:21:11,570 --> 00:21:09,720
so let me let me there's like an

580
00:21:12,770 --> 00:21:11,580
overview and some background things so I

581
00:21:15,049 --> 00:21:12,780
want to maybe talk about a few things

582
00:21:16,610 --> 00:21:15,059
Okay so

583
00:21:18,049 --> 00:21:16,620
um

584
00:21:21,049 --> 00:21:18,059
I

585
00:21:24,289 --> 00:21:21,059
why why is this story perennial to us

586
00:21:27,370 --> 00:21:24,299
okay and I think because what what Plato

587
00:21:30,830 --> 00:21:27,380
has done here is he has

588
00:21:33,529 --> 00:21:30,840
arrived allegorically at like the very

589
00:21:35,990 --> 00:21:33,539
structure of Human Experience okay or or

590
00:21:39,169 --> 00:21:36,000
he's arrived at maybe the very structure

591
00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:39,179
of human life okay

592
00:21:43,130 --> 00:21:40,500
and

593
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:43,140
um we have this view of ourselves that

594
00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:44,400
we are

595
00:21:49,130 --> 00:21:47,220
like we run this planet in as much as we

596
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:49,140
do or maybe we'll find out we don't okay

597
00:21:51,230 --> 00:21:50,400
but we have the illusion we run this

598
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:51,240
planet

599
00:21:56,029 --> 00:21:52,799
because we think of ourselves as like

600
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:56,039
like individually uh Innovative right

601
00:22:00,590 --> 00:21:58,320
like that that like what really drives

602
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:00,600
like human success is that like one of

603
00:22:05,270 --> 00:22:03,120
us thinks up a great idea right and like

604
00:22:07,549 --> 00:22:05,280
like you know and and we do things on

605
00:22:10,669 --> 00:22:07,559
our own and we're creative etc etc etc

606
00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:10,679
okay and I think if you look at

607
00:22:14,090 --> 00:22:11,340
um

608
00:22:14,990 --> 00:22:14,100
what like a lot of the cognitive science

609
00:22:16,130 --> 00:22:15,000
literature on this a lot of

610
00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:16,140
psychological literature on this is

611
00:22:20,090 --> 00:22:18,240
actually what really really makes humans

612
00:22:21,529 --> 00:22:20,100
so successful or part of it is we're

613
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:21,539
actually really really good conformers

614
00:22:27,289 --> 00:22:24,720
okay all right and we're very very very

615
00:22:29,210 --> 00:22:27,299
good conformers uh like we don't talk

616
00:22:30,649 --> 00:22:29,220
about it's hard to hurt humans we talk

617
00:22:32,930 --> 00:22:30,659
about it's hard to hurt cats because

618
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:32,940
it's actually pretty easy to hurt humans

619
00:22:38,810 --> 00:22:35,520
okay that's true that's true okay so

620
00:22:41,090 --> 00:22:38,820
this is a fairly famous experiment and

621
00:22:43,370 --> 00:22:41,100
um if someone wants to read read about

622
00:22:44,510 --> 00:22:43,380
it it's in a book called The Social leap

623
00:22:47,870 --> 00:22:44,520
by

624
00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:47,880
um William Vaughn I'm watching his name

625
00:22:50,870 --> 00:22:49,620
now it's innocent I'll look it up it'll

626
00:22:53,090 --> 00:22:50,880
all be in the episode description for

627
00:22:54,649 --> 00:22:53,100
anybody listens and he talks about an

628
00:22:56,029 --> 00:22:54,659
experiment and I hope I'm getting the

629
00:22:59,029 --> 00:22:56,039
details right whereas if you take a

630
00:23:00,770 --> 00:22:59,039
human child in a chimpanzee that would

631
00:23:02,810 --> 00:23:00,780
be so that they're kind of relatively on

632
00:23:04,010 --> 00:23:02,820
cognitive par right we all had our chimp

633
00:23:07,610 --> 00:23:04,020
stage right

634
00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:07,620
and you you can show them a box that's

635
00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:10,140
opaque and it's got a a number of holes

636
00:23:13,250 --> 00:23:11,100
in the top

637
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:13,260
and you put a treat in the box and you

638
00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:14,880
go through a sequence of poking a stick

639
00:23:19,010 --> 00:23:17,460
in the hole that results in you hitting

640
00:23:21,049 --> 00:23:19,020
the lock that unlocks the box and you

641
00:23:22,549 --> 00:23:21,059
get the treat okay so if you do it

642
00:23:24,470 --> 00:23:22,559
several times in front of the human

643
00:23:26,810 --> 00:23:24,480
child the human child will

644
00:23:30,169 --> 00:23:26,820
if you get a guess will follow suit

645
00:23:32,270 --> 00:23:30,179
right right do it in front of the chimp

646
00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:32,280
chimp will follow suit okay so far so

647
00:23:38,090 --> 00:23:34,799
good now make the Box transparent so

648
00:23:40,669 --> 00:23:38,100
it's obvious where the lock is okay

649
00:23:43,010 --> 00:23:40,679
do the same sequence okay

650
00:23:47,149 --> 00:23:43,020
human kid will

651
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:47,159
follow right the chimp will

652
00:23:52,610 --> 00:23:48,960
bang go right to lock

653
00:23:54,049 --> 00:23:52,620
uh yeah okay because now why is that

654
00:23:56,270 --> 00:23:54,059
okay because

655
00:23:57,950 --> 00:23:56,280
being human is really really damn

656
00:24:01,010 --> 00:23:57,960
complicated compared to being almost any

657
00:24:02,750 --> 00:24:01,020
other animal right like we we like we

658
00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:02,760
come out of the womb and we're not ready

659
00:24:06,590 --> 00:24:04,500
to do anything that we need to do like

660
00:24:07,970 --> 00:24:06,600
we have to learn to be able to in order

661
00:24:09,169 --> 00:24:07,980
to do what we need to do whereas like

662
00:24:11,029 --> 00:24:09,179
most animals come out of the womb

663
00:24:12,890 --> 00:24:11,039
they're pretty well ready to go fairly

664
00:24:14,390 --> 00:24:12,900
quickly okay but we have this long

665
00:24:16,610 --> 00:24:14,400
extended educational period that is

666
00:24:20,029 --> 00:24:16,620
childhood right

667
00:24:21,890 --> 00:24:20,039
um and so because they so if cultural

668
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:21,900
knowledge is is part of our survival

669
00:24:25,789 --> 00:24:23,820
strategy so therefore we have to have we

670
00:24:28,430 --> 00:24:25,799
have to be very good at being taught

671
00:24:31,070 --> 00:24:28,440
right so humans come out of the womb

672
00:24:33,049 --> 00:24:31,080
with a default assumption that another

673
00:24:34,250 --> 00:24:33,059
human face is telling me the truth and

674
00:24:36,049 --> 00:24:34,260
they probably have something good to

675
00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:36,059
tell me and I'm going to follow I'm

676
00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:37,200
going to follow suit in the sequence

677
00:24:41,630 --> 00:24:39,120
does that make sense yeah absolutely

678
00:24:42,470 --> 00:24:41,640
another uh fairly famous example this is

679
00:24:44,870 --> 00:24:42,480
by

680
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:44,880
um a guy named tomasello in a book

681
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:47,760
called um a natural history of human

682
00:24:50,990 --> 00:24:48,960
thinking

683
00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:51,000
he talks about a number of I think he

684
00:24:54,590 --> 00:24:52,080
may have actually done the experiments

685
00:24:56,990 --> 00:24:54,600
of where if you take a human child

686
00:24:58,970 --> 00:24:57,000
and we're playing a game you and I are

687
00:25:00,649 --> 00:24:58,980
playing a game with this child where we

688
00:25:03,230 --> 00:25:00,659
have to take turns to meet a common

689
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:03,240
agenda that would get us both a treat

690
00:25:06,350 --> 00:25:04,559
okay

691
00:25:08,270 --> 00:25:06,360
and you do the same thing with chimp the

692
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:08,280
chimp can a lot of times play along and

693
00:25:11,570 --> 00:25:09,840
like get okay I have to do this for

694
00:25:12,770 --> 00:25:11,580
Kelly to that then if I do that I think

695
00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:12,780
Kelly do this and then we get the tree

696
00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:13,919
okay

697
00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:15,900
now let's say we're doing that and you

698
00:25:23,270 --> 00:25:18,960
quit the game okay the human child will

699
00:25:24,590 --> 00:25:23,280
get pissed okay okay right because but

700
00:25:25,730 --> 00:25:24,600
whereas the champ will just grab the

701
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:25,740
tree

702
00:25:30,529 --> 00:25:28,080
okay because what you get right because

703
00:25:33,350 --> 00:25:30,539
the humans like we we understand our

704
00:25:35,810 --> 00:25:33,360
role here is in our getting the treat

705
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:35,820
together that's a natural default thing

706
00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:37,440
that we have that we should work

707
00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:39,120
together on this thing

708
00:25:43,490 --> 00:25:41,220
uh so we can get a common good whereas

709
00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:43,500
the chimp it's like I'm gonna use you to

710
00:25:47,210 --> 00:25:46,140
get me the treat right and maybe I have

711
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:47,220
to divide it with you but do you see

712
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:48,720
that and it's so as soon as you're not

713
00:25:51,649 --> 00:25:50,159
playing anymore I'm gonna grab the tree

714
00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:51,659
because it's about the treat not about

715
00:25:56,930 --> 00:25:53,820
the game but for humans it can actually

716
00:25:59,870 --> 00:25:56,940
be about the game for us having it okay

717
00:26:02,090 --> 00:25:59,880
yeah yeah okay so all right now

718
00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:02,100
so what does that mean though it means

719
00:26:06,830 --> 00:26:04,740
okay we have to have a common that we

720
00:26:08,810 --> 00:26:06,840
walk around in like Heidegger calls this

721
00:26:11,149 --> 00:26:08,820
in everydayness okay an ordinary

722
00:26:12,769 --> 00:26:11,159
everyday way of being in the world right

723
00:26:15,710 --> 00:26:12,779
that's going to involve basically

724
00:26:17,210 --> 00:26:15,720
conforming to other people right like I

725
00:26:18,529 --> 00:26:17,220
need you to stop at that stop sign I

726
00:26:20,390 --> 00:26:18,539
don't I don't want you to have your own

727
00:26:22,190 --> 00:26:20,400
existential meaningful moment at the

728
00:26:23,630 --> 00:26:22,200
stop side I want you to like do what

729
00:26:25,370 --> 00:26:23,640
you're told and stop at the stop sign do

730
00:26:27,529 --> 00:26:25,380
you see what I mean uh and that's why we

731
00:26:30,110 --> 00:26:27,539
can have like traffic right it's just

732
00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:30,120
that we'll do that and so the idea here

733
00:26:37,310 --> 00:26:32,720
though is we need to have a conforming

734
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:37,320
basic accepted system where we don't

735
00:26:40,010 --> 00:26:38,880
really question all that much and it's

736
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:40,020
even going to because we're cultural

737
00:26:43,730 --> 00:26:42,000
it's going to even conclude like stories

738
00:26:46,430 --> 00:26:43,740
about what reality is

739
00:26:47,810 --> 00:26:46,440
okay all right and so what I'm getting

740
00:26:50,750 --> 00:26:47,820
at here is like

741
00:26:54,830 --> 00:26:50,760
being in the cave looking at illusions

742
00:26:57,590 --> 00:26:54,840
that are put on uh the cave wall by

743
00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:57,600
other people right isn't necessarily

744
00:27:01,610 --> 00:26:59,760
this like dark evil conspiracy theory it

745
00:27:04,130 --> 00:27:01,620
is just the human embodied condition

746
00:27:05,870 --> 00:27:04,140
like this is this because we're so good

747
00:27:07,669 --> 00:27:05,880
at creating caves for ourselves that we

748
00:27:10,370 --> 00:27:07,679
can share it makes us very effective

749
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:10,380
right and this is kind of where we start

750
00:27:13,850 --> 00:27:12,000
out in life is we start out in a cave

751
00:27:16,789 --> 00:27:13,860
and that's neither good nor bad it's

752
00:27:18,110 --> 00:27:16,799
just what we are okay

753
00:27:19,610 --> 00:27:18,120
um did you see that but but notice

754
00:27:22,909 --> 00:27:19,620
though

755
00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:22,919
that's always just one way the cave

756
00:27:26,210 --> 00:27:24,360
could be done there's probably lots of

757
00:27:27,409 --> 00:27:26,220
collective Illusions we could have that

758
00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:27,419
would guess around the world really

759
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:29,520
really well all right so the question

760
00:27:34,669 --> 00:27:32,100
will always come up is like okay what

761
00:27:36,529 --> 00:27:34,679
what is it like what okay Beyond just

762
00:27:38,510 --> 00:27:36,539
what we have to like the natural human

763
00:27:41,210 --> 00:27:38,520
default of Conformity our everydayness

764
00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:41,220
like what actually is true okay and

765
00:27:44,210 --> 00:27:41,940
that's like kind of like the

766
00:27:47,090 --> 00:27:44,220
philosophical Awakening okay do you see

767
00:27:48,289 --> 00:27:47,100
that yeah absolutely I mean I think I

768
00:27:50,510 --> 00:27:48,299
think a lot of people have that

769
00:27:52,970 --> 00:27:50,520
experience coming coming into this topic

770
00:27:54,649 --> 00:27:52,980
yeah also you know I think what I was

771
00:27:56,570 --> 00:27:54,659
most shocked in myself is I consider

772
00:27:59,090 --> 00:27:56,580
myself to be a pretty good critical

773
00:28:01,310 --> 00:27:59,100
thinker and to be an open-minded person

774
00:28:03,529 --> 00:28:01,320
and to be an independent thinker and to

775
00:28:05,450 --> 00:28:03,539
realize that I had gotten so far in my

776
00:28:07,930 --> 00:28:05,460
life just right completely writing off

777
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:07,940
things that I'd never done any actual

778
00:28:13,789 --> 00:28:11,039
research on myself but you and it also

779
00:28:15,710 --> 00:28:13,799
makes me think I wonder sometimes if

780
00:28:18,769 --> 00:28:15,720
that might not be the reason why there

781
00:28:21,289 --> 00:28:18,779
are fewer women in this field is because

782
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:21,299
I think women I mean I hate generalizing

783
00:28:24,710 --> 00:28:23,279
too much based on gender but I think

784
00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:24,720
women in general tend to be more

785
00:28:28,210 --> 00:28:26,880
communal you know I think that when

786
00:28:31,010 --> 00:28:28,220
you're

787
00:28:34,130 --> 00:28:31,020
primarily engaged with like the child

788
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:34,140
rearing and the caring for the home and

789
00:28:38,570 --> 00:28:35,760
you know the protecting of those

790
00:28:40,909 --> 00:28:38,580
resources and that sort of thing that

791
00:28:42,769 --> 00:28:40,919
you you know they say like it takes a

792
00:28:45,230 --> 00:28:42,779
village right and I think that for women

793
00:28:48,769 --> 00:28:45,240
maybe it feels more threatening

794
00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:48,779
just culturally to step outside of that

795
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:50,640
kind of collective everydayness that

796
00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:52,080
you're talking about well at the very

797
00:28:57,230 --> 00:28:53,880
least we don't reward women for doing it

798
00:28:59,409 --> 00:28:57,240
the way we do men right that's true true

799
00:29:02,930 --> 00:28:59,419
I have not gotten my word in the mail

800
00:29:04,010 --> 00:29:02,940
exactly exactly you know so

801
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:04,020
um and so

802
00:29:07,789 --> 00:29:05,520
um

803
00:29:09,049 --> 00:29:07,799
I'll I can I can identify it kind of

804
00:29:11,330 --> 00:29:09,059
with some of what you're saying earlier

805
00:29:12,890 --> 00:29:11,340
it's like look here I you know here I

806
00:29:15,529 --> 00:29:12,900
was you know a 40 something year old

807
00:29:18,649 --> 00:29:15,539
academic professor of philosophy like a

808
00:29:21,350 --> 00:29:18,659
proud critical thinker right and I had

809
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:21,360
just simply dismissed you know anybody

810
00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:24,000
who believed in UFOs as as as tinfoil

811
00:29:26,810 --> 00:29:25,440
Hatters and I don't mean to make fun of

812
00:29:29,269 --> 00:29:26,820
schizophrenia there by saying that okay

813
00:29:31,130 --> 00:29:29,279
but but I had like just dismissed UFO

814
00:29:33,710 --> 00:29:31,140
Believers as tinfoil Hatters or

815
00:29:35,870 --> 00:29:33,720
conspiracy nuts or whatever pejorative I

816
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:35,880
want to use but you know what I had

817
00:29:39,049 --> 00:29:37,200
never really thought about it it's just

818
00:29:40,490 --> 00:29:39,059
what they told me it's this is

819
00:29:42,110 --> 00:29:40,500
Heidegger's term for this it's it's you

820
00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:42,120
we didn't we don't always have our own

821
00:29:47,389 --> 00:29:44,880
self we have the they self we have I

822
00:29:50,029 --> 00:29:47,399
just say what they say I do what they do

823
00:29:52,909 --> 00:29:50,039
it's what one does in this situation and

824
00:29:54,889 --> 00:29:52,919
you know good you know critical thinking

825
00:29:57,049 --> 00:29:54,899
in academics just don't take UFOs

826
00:30:00,049 --> 00:29:57,059
seriously so I just never took UFO

827
00:30:02,210 --> 00:30:00,059
seriously right but then I had a kind of

828
00:30:04,430 --> 00:30:02,220
wake up out of the cave moment you know

829
00:30:06,470 --> 00:30:04,440
while watching X-Files in during the

830
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:06,480
pandemic with my kids right but you see

831
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:08,399
that so so I I want to I want to make

832
00:30:12,049 --> 00:30:11,039
clear it's like so my take here is the

833
00:30:14,690 --> 00:30:12,059
cave

834
00:30:16,669 --> 00:30:14,700
is a natural Human Condition it's not

835
00:30:18,950 --> 00:30:16,679
necessarily the product of a nefarious

836
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:18,960
conspiracy theory though I think maybe

837
00:30:23,450 --> 00:30:20,880
it is sometimes right did you see that

838
00:30:24,409 --> 00:30:23,460
okay yeah absolutely right now

839
00:30:26,269 --> 00:30:24,419
um

840
00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:26,279
I wanna there's a there's a

841
00:30:29,330 --> 00:30:28,320
an interesting problem like a meta

842
00:30:30,529 --> 00:30:29,340
problem with all this that I want to

843
00:30:33,649 --> 00:30:30,539
bring in that's going to help us connect

844
00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:33,659
even deeper with the phenomenon Okay so

845
00:30:38,630 --> 00:30:35,880
think of what like what what Plato is

846
00:30:39,649 --> 00:30:38,640
saying here is he's saying look

847
00:30:45,409 --> 00:30:39,659
um

848
00:30:48,169 --> 00:30:45,419
city scare quotes Okay found itself

849
00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:48,179
is going to end in

850
00:30:52,250 --> 00:30:50,580
you know self-collapse it's going to end

851
00:30:54,529 --> 00:30:52,260
badly okay

852
00:30:56,690 --> 00:30:54,539
so it's and he says so what you need to

853
00:30:59,450 --> 00:30:56,700
found a city is you need

854
00:31:01,370 --> 00:30:59,460
an educational system that produces

855
00:31:03,409 --> 00:31:01,380
philosopher Kings who can run the city

856
00:31:04,730 --> 00:31:03,419
okay but then there's this really

857
00:31:06,110 --> 00:31:04,740
difficult problem well then how do you

858
00:31:08,149 --> 00:31:06,120
get it how do you get a city in the

859
00:31:10,669 --> 00:31:08,159
first place then that's going to last it

860
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:10,679
seems like to have like you need a good

861
00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:14,159
City to produce the philosopher okay

862
00:31:18,169 --> 00:31:16,140
but you can't get a philosopher until

863
00:31:19,909 --> 00:31:18,179
but you can't get a good City to have

864
00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:19,919
philosophers that can be educators

865
00:31:25,730 --> 00:31:22,559
right so there's a circular problem of

866
00:31:28,010 --> 00:31:25,740
founding in the Republic okay

867
00:31:30,409 --> 00:31:28,020
um and throughout the book you get these

868
00:31:32,269 --> 00:31:30,419
very weird oblique references well next

869
00:31:33,769 --> 00:31:32,279
our educators will have to do this or

870
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:33,779
next our Founders will have to do this

871
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:36,240
or next we will have to do this

872
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:39,600
okay but we're never told like in the

873
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:43,440
like original ER sense who is that

874
00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:45,600
who's getting this off the ground if

875
00:31:48,049 --> 00:31:46,740
indeed we're going to have a good City

876
00:31:50,930 --> 00:31:48,059
it seems like we'd have to already have

877
00:31:53,149 --> 00:31:50,940
it in order to get it do you see that

878
00:31:54,889 --> 00:31:53,159
and this is this is a common platonic

879
00:31:55,789 --> 00:31:54,899
theme where Plato says Hey to know

880
00:31:57,409 --> 00:31:55,799
something you'd have to have already

881
00:31:58,490 --> 00:31:57,419
known it like there's only memory

882
00:32:01,010 --> 00:31:58,500
there's not Discovery there's only

883
00:32:02,510 --> 00:32:01,020
memory there's not Discovery okay

884
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,520
um and so like there's this question

885
00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:04,320
like so then how does the first person

886
00:32:09,769 --> 00:32:07,980
to like leave the everyday common shared

887
00:32:11,149 --> 00:32:09,779
illusion and look out of the cave how

888
00:32:12,889 --> 00:32:11,159
does that person do it because it seems

889
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:12,899
like they would have to be educated by

890
00:32:18,289 --> 00:32:15,840
somebody who has it okay all right so it

891
00:32:19,970 --> 00:32:18,299
looks like implicit Plato doesn't say it

892
00:32:22,730 --> 00:32:19,980
but it looks like implicit this like

893
00:32:25,010 --> 00:32:22,740
something from outside has to reach in

894
00:32:28,070 --> 00:32:25,020
and pull us up

895
00:32:30,549 --> 00:32:28,080
okay okay yeah you see that something

896
00:32:34,250 --> 00:32:30,559
from outside so something from outside

897
00:32:37,850 --> 00:32:34,260
our everyday cave Illusions has to like

898
00:32:40,549 --> 00:32:37,860
Peak its way in and and guide us out of

899
00:32:43,130 --> 00:32:40,559
it it cannot be just our own doing

900
00:32:44,570 --> 00:32:43,140
yeah you know something that that I have

901
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:44,580
a few different translations and I know

902
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:46,080
there are many many

903
00:32:50,870 --> 00:32:47,760
um different translations of Republic in

904
00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:50,880
the cave but one that the one that I've

905
00:32:54,049 --> 00:32:52,080
been looking at and one that I've seen

906
00:32:55,850 --> 00:32:54,059
in a few different translations is that

907
00:32:58,490 --> 00:32:55,860
when it talks about that first instance

908
00:33:01,310 --> 00:32:58,500
where where he's where there's he's

909
00:33:03,350 --> 00:33:01,320
explaining the layout of the cave and

910
00:33:05,630 --> 00:33:03,360
the the initial the first time that like

911
00:33:07,010 --> 00:33:05,640
waking up experience is explained like

912
00:33:08,810 --> 00:33:07,020
in a lot of translations it actually

913
00:33:11,149 --> 00:33:08,820
says that the per like that this person

914
00:33:13,190 --> 00:33:11,159
what if this person was forced to look

915
00:33:16,130 --> 00:33:13,200
at the fire the fire light and then it

916
00:33:18,649 --> 00:33:16,140
says if they were forcibly dragged up

917
00:33:20,570 --> 00:33:18,659
the steep climb of the cavern and firmly

918
00:33:23,090 --> 00:33:20,580
held until finally he stands in the

919
00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:23,100
light of the sun like that first of all

920
00:33:27,049 --> 00:33:24,840
I laughed at that the first time I read

921
00:33:28,490 --> 00:33:27,059
it because that was what my I felt my

922
00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:28,500
waking up experience I actually

923
00:33:32,210 --> 00:33:30,240
described to people as being dragged by

924
00:33:35,509 --> 00:33:32,220
the hair like it was not something that

925
00:33:37,490 --> 00:33:35,519
I wanted to happen exactly yeah

926
00:33:39,110 --> 00:33:37,500
but I wonder if that's that that made me

927
00:33:40,310 --> 00:33:39,120
think of that exactly what you're

928
00:33:42,049 --> 00:33:40,320
talking about like do you read it that

929
00:33:43,610 --> 00:33:42,059
way that the the like in some ways these

930
00:33:47,450 --> 00:33:43,620
anomalous experiences are the thing that

931
00:33:49,789 --> 00:33:47,460
like forces you to look yes exactly so

932
00:33:51,710 --> 00:33:49,799
so increasingly okay so what what do I

933
00:33:53,870 --> 00:33:51,720
think is going on well gosh I've

934
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:53,880
speculated right but okay is it says

935
00:33:57,470 --> 00:33:55,440
what is Plato arriveder he arrives at

936
00:33:59,450 --> 00:33:57,480
kind of a structure of of what

937
00:34:02,090 --> 00:33:59,460
enlightenment is right we're in our

938
00:34:04,909 --> 00:34:02,100
necessary everyday home drum

939
00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:04,919
pack of like if not outright lies

940
00:34:08,450 --> 00:34:07,440
convenient truths right I think I think

941
00:34:10,970 --> 00:34:08,460
it's better to think of his convenient

942
00:34:12,649 --> 00:34:10,980
truths because like the the puppets the

943
00:34:14,510 --> 00:34:12,659
people in front of the fire are holding

944
00:34:15,889 --> 00:34:14,520
are images of the things outside of the

945
00:34:18,109 --> 00:34:15,899
cave but they're just caricatures

946
00:34:19,730 --> 00:34:18,119
they're conveniently contrived so we can

947
00:34:22,250 --> 00:34:19,740
get around so we have our like our life

948
00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:22,260
of like home drum convenient truth and

949
00:34:26,810 --> 00:34:25,020
then something drags us out of it and

950
00:34:30,169 --> 00:34:26,820
like we have to look at something Beyond

951
00:34:31,790 --> 00:34:30,179
right so we realize that the world we

952
00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:31,800
make for ourselves is not the whole

953
00:34:35,930 --> 00:34:34,320
story okay and that we have indeed made

954
00:34:38,930 --> 00:34:35,940
this and we can ask dark questions about

955
00:34:40,849 --> 00:34:38,940
it and there's something beyond that

956
00:34:42,349 --> 00:34:40,859
for good or ill that we should look at

957
00:34:44,930 --> 00:34:42,359
and it's going to be very painful to do

958
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:44,940
that but but note for it seems

959
00:34:48,589 --> 00:34:46,800
implicitous that this requires you know

960
00:34:52,310 --> 00:34:48,599
dare I say like an arrival from the

961
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:52,320
outside right okay and you can see so

962
00:34:55,550 --> 00:34:54,000
whether whether in this I think really

963
00:34:57,410 --> 00:34:55,560
hooks up with with Diana's work

964
00:35:01,490 --> 00:34:57,420
interestingly right or if valet's work

965
00:35:04,130 --> 00:35:01,500
is whether it's UFOs showing up to like

966
00:35:07,550 --> 00:35:04,140
wake us up from the the vulgar

967
00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:07,560
conformers of the 1950s right or you

968
00:35:12,349 --> 00:35:10,800
know an opera Apparition at Fatima you

969
00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:12,359
know doing something similar you know

970
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:14,640
something is equal to like we can see

971
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:16,320
that this like what Plato is hitting

972
00:35:20,690 --> 00:35:18,480
here is a structure of Human Experience

973
00:35:22,490 --> 00:35:20,700
this is just how Enlightenment works for

974
00:35:25,430 --> 00:35:22,500
us we're in our everydayness and then

975
00:35:26,510 --> 00:35:25,440
something beyond that hits us and drags

976
00:35:29,329 --> 00:35:26,520
us out of a cave through a painful

977
00:35:32,450 --> 00:35:29,339
process do you see and so this leads me

978
00:35:33,650 --> 00:35:32,460
to think of the UFO very much as this is

979
00:35:35,450 --> 00:35:33,660
this is

980
00:35:37,970 --> 00:35:35,460
Western history

981
00:35:40,130 --> 00:35:37,980
maybe all of history right going through

982
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:40,140
another cycle of this same

983
00:35:44,630 --> 00:35:42,480
you know forgetfulness Enlightenment

984
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:44,640
forgetfulness Enlightenment right that

985
00:35:49,790 --> 00:35:47,040
we've seen throughout right

986
00:35:52,069 --> 00:35:49,800
um and that's not that's not to like

987
00:35:54,230 --> 00:35:52,079
take the UFO as just a psychological

988
00:35:55,690 --> 00:35:54,240
projection not at all it's to say the no

989
00:35:58,550 --> 00:35:55,700
something

990
00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:58,560
outside of our Ordinary World whether

991
00:36:02,210 --> 00:36:00,000
it's like literally off the planet or

992
00:36:04,550 --> 00:36:02,220
just outside of our phenomological world

993
00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:04,560
is showing up and slapping Us in the

994
00:36:07,790 --> 00:36:05,160
face

995
00:36:10,010 --> 00:36:07,800
yeah in a sense of like a wake up yeah

996
00:36:11,390 --> 00:36:10,020
yeah no and I think something that'd be

997
00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:11,400
really cool for us to unpack throughout

998
00:36:14,329 --> 00:36:13,140
this interview because I I had such an

999
00:36:15,230 --> 00:36:14,339
awesome time over the last few days

1000
00:36:16,010 --> 00:36:15,240
going through all through all of your

1001
00:36:19,069 --> 00:36:16,020
work

1002
00:36:20,270 --> 00:36:19,079
is sort of like what is the nature of

1003
00:36:22,010 --> 00:36:20,280
that thing because as you kind of

1004
00:36:23,870 --> 00:36:22,020
alluded to before are we talking about

1005
00:36:27,050 --> 00:36:23,880
like a collective unconscious thing that

1006
00:36:30,890 --> 00:36:27,060
kind of is this like feature of the of

1007
00:36:32,750 --> 00:36:30,900
the software of Consciousness or is this

1008
00:36:34,609 --> 00:36:32,760
we're like like I think you know

1009
00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:34,619
especially when people first come to the

1010
00:36:37,970 --> 00:36:36,960
UFO phenomenon they might think that and

1011
00:36:39,470 --> 00:36:37,980
even based on stuff we've talked about

1012
00:36:41,750 --> 00:36:39,480
the last few episodes that they might

1013
00:36:44,329 --> 00:36:41,760
think like that there's literally maybe

1014
00:36:46,910 --> 00:36:44,339
some you know non-human intelligences of

1015
00:36:49,190 --> 00:36:46,920
some kind about a craft up in that you

1016
00:36:50,690 --> 00:36:49,200
know sending these things to wake us up

1017
00:36:52,510 --> 00:36:50,700
or but I think that there's a lot of

1018
00:36:55,550 --> 00:36:52,520
really more interesting

1019
00:36:57,730 --> 00:36:55,560
potentialities there as well right you

1020
00:37:01,190 --> 00:36:57,740
know in in let me let me hang with Plato

1021
00:37:04,069 --> 00:37:01,200
yeah absolutely so think of it though

1022
00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:04,079
you know when the the liberated person

1023
00:37:08,329 --> 00:37:05,940
goes back to the cave

1024
00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:08,339
his attempts to articulate himself fail

1025
00:37:13,550 --> 00:37:11,400
they utterly fail right because

1026
00:37:15,530 --> 00:37:13,560
he's be he's been called Beyond

1027
00:37:17,210 --> 00:37:15,540
something that like fits into the

1028
00:37:18,710 --> 00:37:17,220
ordinary everyday language

1029
00:37:20,690 --> 00:37:18,720
and then the attempt to articulate and

1030
00:37:21,770 --> 00:37:20,700
that always fails he becomes an

1031
00:37:24,050 --> 00:37:21,780
articulate and then eventually he's

1032
00:37:27,230 --> 00:37:24,060
going to be killed did you see that

1033
00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:27,240
right okay so you know I you know I I'm

1034
00:37:31,609 --> 00:37:29,760
I I wonder you know is the very

1035
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:31,619
structural Enlightenment such that it's

1036
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:34,079
going to leave you just an inarticulate

1037
00:37:38,450 --> 00:37:36,000
babbler in your attempt to give an

1038
00:37:40,430 --> 00:37:38,460
explanation of it do you see what I mean

1039
00:37:42,650 --> 00:37:40,440
um and and if you do and I think this is

1040
00:37:43,310 --> 00:37:42,660
very much in valet's work

1041
00:37:45,950 --> 00:37:43,320
um

1042
00:37:48,349 --> 00:37:45,960
you know if you look at it is Gee you

1043
00:37:51,349 --> 00:37:48,359
know we just got done uh you know in in

1044
00:37:53,290 --> 00:37:51,359
America like you know winning a war by

1045
00:37:57,290 --> 00:37:53,300
using like you know

1046
00:37:59,569 --> 00:37:57,300
aircraft right and then suddenly things

1047
00:38:01,849 --> 00:37:59,579
that are kind of like looking like you

1048
00:38:04,069 --> 00:38:01,859
know Airborne war machines show up for

1049
00:38:05,390 --> 00:38:04,079
us right or you know like like there's

1050
00:38:06,829 --> 00:38:05,400
like valet talks about in the 19th

1051
00:38:08,030 --> 00:38:06,839
century like people would have anomalous

1052
00:38:10,550 --> 00:38:08,040
experiences and they would look like

1053
00:38:11,810 --> 00:38:10,560
sailing ships right and you know in the

1054
00:38:14,150 --> 00:38:11,820
ancient world they would they would say

1055
00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:14,160
Shields or they would see you know um

1056
00:38:18,829 --> 00:38:17,040
chariots or whatever right and I think

1057
00:38:21,470 --> 00:38:18,839
you have to be careful to say well what

1058
00:38:22,490 --> 00:38:21,480
we're what we're finding now is that you

1059
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:22,500
know the

1060
00:38:27,290 --> 00:38:25,440
the the what the Romans saw as a shield

1061
00:38:29,510 --> 00:38:27,300
is actually a flying saucer or maybe

1062
00:38:31,010 --> 00:38:29,520
what we see as a flying saucer as a

1063
00:38:33,589 --> 00:38:31,020
shield I think what we're seeing here is

1064
00:38:35,510 --> 00:38:33,599
when we try to when we come back from

1065
00:38:36,410 --> 00:38:35,520
like the moment of Enlightenment and we

1066
00:38:38,569 --> 00:38:36,420
try to make sense of it we're going to

1067
00:38:40,790 --> 00:38:38,579
put it back into our everyday terms

1068
00:38:42,950 --> 00:38:40,800
you know what I mean so I think our

1069
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:42,960
attempts to articulate it

1070
00:38:46,990 --> 00:38:45,359
are always going to fall short or

1071
00:38:49,190 --> 00:38:47,000
they're going to be in some ways

1072
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:49,200
relative to what we can make sense of

1073
00:38:52,910 --> 00:38:50,880
and then thereby

1074
00:38:55,490 --> 00:38:52,920
not really going to get it

1075
00:38:57,230 --> 00:38:55,500
yeah right right okay and so so what do

1076
00:38:58,609 --> 00:38:57,240
we do now I don't know but it might be

1077
00:39:01,010 --> 00:38:58,619
that like it's part of it part of is our

1078
00:39:03,349 --> 00:39:01,020
admission that the ball is in the court

1079
00:39:05,450 --> 00:39:03,359
of the other side of this

1080
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:05,460
like you know what I mean like it's not

1081
00:39:08,089 --> 00:39:06,720
going to be up to us to articulate this

1082
00:39:10,490 --> 00:39:08,099
it's going to be up to it to artico

1083
00:39:14,270 --> 00:39:10,500
itself to us right do you think that we

1084
00:39:15,349 --> 00:39:14,280
have a prayer of coming up with I mean

1085
00:39:17,329 --> 00:39:15,359
we could certainly come up with better

1086
00:39:19,130 --> 00:39:17,339
models that would at least like allow

1087
00:39:21,050 --> 00:39:19,140
for these things to happen but I mean do

1088
00:39:22,670 --> 00:39:21,060
we have a prayer through those models

1089
00:39:23,870 --> 00:39:22,680
like is it just that our models are

1090
00:39:26,030 --> 00:39:23,880
wrong and that's what's keeping us

1091
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:26,040
trapped in the cave or is just the

1092
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:30,000
nature of our human experience that that

1093
00:39:33,950 --> 00:39:32,160
of the cave and we can't necessarily a

1094
00:39:37,310 --> 00:39:33,960
model isn't going to get us out of it

1095
00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:37,320
yeah I I tend toward the latter okay I

1096
00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:39,660
tend to the ladder that we whatever we

1097
00:39:43,550 --> 00:39:42,000
do we're going to have like if as much

1098
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:43,560
we're going to articulate it it is going

1099
00:39:50,150 --> 00:39:48,480
to be in the cave language right uh we

1100
00:39:52,970 --> 00:39:50,160
will be as if cavemen in talking about

1101
00:39:54,770 --> 00:39:52,980
this and so there I think there could be

1102
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:54,780
better or worse models within the cave

1103
00:39:57,710 --> 00:39:56,640
language but the idea that somehow we're

1104
00:40:00,170 --> 00:39:57,720
going to

1105
00:40:02,569 --> 00:40:00,180
not be ourselves when we articulate this

1106
00:40:05,390 --> 00:40:02,579
uh I think that that is that's an

1107
00:40:07,550 --> 00:40:05,400
impossibility right right

1108
00:40:09,290 --> 00:40:07,560
so I see this as good it's going to be I

1109
00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:09,300
see this it will be a perennial problem

1110
00:40:12,650 --> 00:40:11,760
right like it's a it's a perennial

1111
00:40:14,630 --> 00:40:12,660
problem

1112
00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:14,640
yeah and I was wondering if you could

1113
00:40:19,970 --> 00:40:18,060
talk a little bit about because

1114
00:40:22,310 --> 00:40:19,980
this is because the cave is about

1115
00:40:26,030 --> 00:40:22,320
education right you know so many of

1116
00:40:28,970 --> 00:40:26,040
Plato's ideas about education are kind

1117
00:40:31,310 --> 00:40:28,980
of implicit in the story in a way that

1118
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:31,320
might not like pop out to people who are

1119
00:40:35,089 --> 00:40:32,880
reading it for the first time so you

1120
00:40:36,290 --> 00:40:35,099
could you could you talk a little bit

1121
00:40:38,030 --> 00:40:36,300
about that because I feel like the idea

1122
00:40:39,890 --> 00:40:38,040
of the divided line might give people a

1123
00:40:41,569 --> 00:40:39,900
better idea of like why the outside of

1124
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:41,579
the cave is so like unintelligible to us

1125
00:40:48,050 --> 00:40:45,839
in a way sure so um okay so you're right

1126
00:40:50,450 --> 00:40:48,060
I think in a lot of ways we should see

1127
00:40:51,950 --> 00:40:50,460
the Republic really is A Treatise on

1128
00:40:53,870 --> 00:40:51,960
education It's A Treatise of how to

1129
00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:53,880
become enlightened right

1130
00:40:57,650 --> 00:40:55,200
and

1131
00:40:58,970 --> 00:40:57,660
um you know Plato's Plato's actual

1132
00:41:00,589 --> 00:40:58,980
process of Education we have to be

1133
00:41:03,530 --> 00:41:00,599
careful too he's not saying this is what

1134
00:41:06,650 --> 00:41:03,540
an education he would prescribe to every

1135
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:06,660
human being it's it's to the philosopher

1136
00:41:11,450 --> 00:41:08,400
which I always tell my students doesn't

1137
00:41:13,130 --> 00:41:11,460
the philosopher Plato is not a guy like

1138
00:41:15,170 --> 00:41:13,140
me with like an incredibly easy job

1139
00:41:17,390 --> 00:41:15,180
right I mean the philosopher for Plato

1140
00:41:20,030 --> 00:41:17,400
is the enlightened person the person who

1141
00:41:22,849 --> 00:41:20,040
has love of wisdom but in like a Lusty

1142
00:41:25,190 --> 00:41:22,859
sense someone who lusts for wisdom okay

1143
00:41:27,050 --> 00:41:25,200
and the education of that person uh for

1144
00:41:28,670 --> 00:41:27,060
Plato first of all at least as he

1145
00:41:30,490 --> 00:41:28,680
outlines it in the republic or he has

1146
00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:30,500
Socrates outlined in the Republic

1147
00:41:34,849 --> 00:41:32,220
begins

1148
00:41:37,550 --> 00:41:34,859
um with a lot of physical training okay

1149
00:41:40,190 --> 00:41:37,560
because uh you know he has this famous

1150
00:41:42,290 --> 00:41:40,200
line that uh someone who doesn't have

1151
00:41:44,569 --> 00:41:42,300
physical training becomes too soft and

1152
00:41:46,130 --> 00:41:44,579
someone who has doesn't have uh training

1153
00:41:48,470 --> 00:41:46,140
and philosophy in the Arts becomes too

1154
00:41:50,870 --> 00:41:48,480
hard right so he does say there would be

1155
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:50,880
rigorous physical training mainly aimed

1156
00:41:54,770 --> 00:41:52,560
towards fighting so he's talking like

1157
00:41:57,349 --> 00:41:54,780
martial arts here okay

1158
00:41:59,329 --> 00:41:57,359
and then people would be taught a trade

1159
00:42:02,030 --> 00:41:59,339
okay

1160
00:42:03,230 --> 00:42:02,040
um and so his idea there so

1161
00:42:04,910 --> 00:42:03,240
kind of have to you have to like take

1162
00:42:07,790 --> 00:42:04,920
care of like the root animal body stuff

1163
00:42:09,530 --> 00:42:07,800
right okay and then what's the next step

1164
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:09,540
done it's like

1165
00:42:15,170 --> 00:42:12,960
between you know science and root animal

1166
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:15,180
bodily martial arts stuff right I mean

1167
00:42:18,349 --> 00:42:16,079
that's the wrong way to put a front

1168
00:42:20,030 --> 00:42:18,359
Source but uh but there's this other

1169
00:42:21,710 --> 00:42:20,040
thing which is like a PR it's like a

1170
00:42:24,250 --> 00:42:21,720
practical skill which is kind of

1171
00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:24,260
intellectual but still Marshall right

1172
00:42:27,890 --> 00:42:26,160
and so

1173
00:42:30,650 --> 00:42:27,900
um next you would learn a trade right so

1174
00:42:32,089 --> 00:42:30,660
literally you would you and and um so

1175
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:32,099
for instance he would have you start

1176
00:42:34,810 --> 00:42:34,079
learning

1177
00:42:38,930 --> 00:42:34,820
um

1178
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:38,940
Agriculture and uh architecture okay or

1179
00:42:43,849 --> 00:42:41,040
house building okay because both of

1180
00:42:46,970 --> 00:42:43,859
these for Plato naturally raised the

1181
00:42:48,530 --> 00:42:46,980
issue of geometry okay so in learning

1182
00:42:49,730 --> 00:42:48,540
the trade and getting good at it it's

1183
00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:49,740
going to raise another kind of question

1184
00:42:54,650 --> 00:42:52,800
to you right which is which would be the

1185
00:42:56,030 --> 00:42:54,660
geometric questions okay and he has the

1186
00:42:57,950 --> 00:42:56,040
same thing like well you should learn

1187
00:42:59,569 --> 00:42:57,960
navigation right why because it's going

1188
00:43:01,190 --> 00:42:59,579
to raise the astronaut astronomy

1189
00:43:02,630 --> 00:43:01,200
questions to you and you can see what

1190
00:43:05,750 --> 00:43:02,640
we're doing is we're ascending a

1191
00:43:08,510 --> 00:43:05,760
hierarchy of

1192
00:43:10,849 --> 00:43:08,520
less bodily and more abstract questions

1193
00:43:13,130 --> 00:43:10,859
as we go up okay

1194
00:43:15,490 --> 00:43:13,140
and so and eventually then you know so

1195
00:43:17,809 --> 00:43:15,500
like you'll go from like uh just

1196
00:43:20,450 --> 00:43:17,819
Agriculture and house building to

1197
00:43:22,970 --> 00:43:20,460
Geometry you'll go from you know sailing

1198
00:43:25,370 --> 00:43:22,980
a ship to astronomy right you'll go from

1199
00:43:28,550 --> 00:43:25,380
uh like record keeping in your dad's

1200
00:43:31,010 --> 00:43:28,560
business right to number Theory right

1201
00:43:33,589 --> 00:43:31,020
and you're becoming now not practical

1202
00:43:34,849 --> 00:43:33,599
but entirely theoretical okay and then

1203
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:34,859
he thinks at the top of that you're

1204
00:43:39,829 --> 00:43:36,480
eventually it's going to all unite into

1205
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:39,839
this one single study of the absolute

1206
00:43:44,510 --> 00:43:42,240
ideals of things and and him for him

1207
00:43:46,250 --> 00:43:44,520
will eventually become an understanding

1208
00:43:47,750 --> 00:43:46,260
of just what is good and what he means

1209
00:43:49,430 --> 00:43:47,760
by that he can't tell you because that's

1210
00:43:51,950 --> 00:43:49,440
the top of the wrong but it's just what

1211
00:43:53,770 --> 00:43:51,960
is best and ideal okay and when you

1212
00:43:55,730 --> 00:43:53,780
mention the divided line so you have

1213
00:43:57,410 --> 00:43:55,740
paralleling that like

1214
00:43:58,370 --> 00:43:57,420
in in Plato's metaphysics and

1215
00:44:01,550 --> 00:43:58,380
epistemology

1216
00:44:03,829 --> 00:44:01,560
the least real the least worth knowing

1217
00:44:06,470 --> 00:44:03,839
things are just simply bodily things

1218
00:44:08,030 --> 00:44:06,480
right next up are things about which we

1219
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:08,040
can have opinion but not absolute

1220
00:44:12,770 --> 00:44:11,280
knowledge like trades okay and then next

1221
00:44:14,450 --> 00:44:12,780
up from that are things we can have

1222
00:44:15,770 --> 00:44:14,460
absolute knowledge right which are the

1223
00:44:17,930 --> 00:44:15,780
specialized sciences and then the

1224
00:44:19,970 --> 00:44:17,940
greatest of the specialized Sciences is

1225
00:44:22,370 --> 00:44:19,980
something like like like metaphysics or

1226
00:44:24,290 --> 00:44:22,380
ethics even for him right and so the

1227
00:44:26,270 --> 00:44:24,300
idea that education would take you from

1228
00:44:29,990 --> 00:44:26,280
the lowest to the highest for that

1229
00:44:32,030 --> 00:44:30,000
process right and note the lower we go

1230
00:44:34,670 --> 00:44:32,040
the more we're in our everyday practical

1231
00:44:36,410 --> 00:44:34,680
get around world and as you become

1232
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:36,420
educated we like get our way out of that

1233
00:44:40,730 --> 00:44:39,599
right yeah absolutely and it it correct

1234
00:44:42,770 --> 00:44:40,740
me if I'm wrong but it seems like

1235
00:44:48,829 --> 00:44:42,780
there's a

1236
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:48,839
in there where the the person who is

1237
00:44:54,349 --> 00:44:52,079
being educated you know as they start to

1238
00:44:55,670 --> 00:44:54,359
I heard you put it somewhere like that

1239
00:44:58,010 --> 00:44:55,680
people have to understand what something

1240
00:45:01,250 --> 00:44:58,020
is good for before they can understand

1241
00:45:03,290 --> 00:45:01,260
what it is and so there is like like you

1242
00:45:04,790 --> 00:45:03,300
could educate someone

1243
00:45:06,770 --> 00:45:04,800
on all of these things you could set

1244
00:45:08,809 --> 00:45:06,780
them on this path but there's a certain

1245
00:45:12,530 --> 00:45:08,819
point where the student

1246
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:12,540
through doing it has this kind of

1247
00:45:16,430 --> 00:45:14,880
Greater understanding that is revealed

1248
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:16,440
to them that like a teacher can help

1249
00:45:20,089 --> 00:45:18,480
steer them towards but that leap is sort

1250
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:20,099
of something that the student has to do

1251
00:45:24,589 --> 00:45:22,560
right yeah for Plato education is not a

1252
00:45:27,410 --> 00:45:24,599
spectator sport right and and I think

1253
00:45:29,930 --> 00:45:27,420
it's important that you have to learn

1254
00:45:32,210 --> 00:45:29,940
for him you have to begin by learning a

1255
00:45:35,210 --> 00:45:32,220
trade okay so like this idea like what

1256
00:45:36,829 --> 00:45:35,220
do we do to young people today and it's

1257
00:45:38,930 --> 00:45:36,839
done to you and me when we went to

1258
00:45:40,730 --> 00:45:38,940
school is we don't teach you how to do

1259
00:45:41,630 --> 00:45:40,740
anything we just we like we don't teach

1260
00:45:45,770 --> 00:45:41,640
you

1261
00:45:47,690 --> 00:45:45,780
like how to be an accountant right we

1262
00:45:49,030 --> 00:45:47,700
just jump you right into the algebra

1263
00:45:51,650 --> 00:45:49,040
right okay

1264
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:51,660
and then you're left like like but what

1265
00:45:55,609 --> 00:45:54,000
is that it's an empty abstraction it has

1266
00:45:58,069 --> 00:45:55,619
no grip on reality for you because

1267
00:45:59,390 --> 00:45:58,079
you've never done it right in in a

1268
00:46:01,250 --> 00:45:59,400
practical way like we might just take

1269
00:46:02,930 --> 00:46:01,260
you right to the physics but we never

1270
00:46:05,390 --> 00:46:02,940
taught you how to navigate a ship right

1271
00:46:07,250 --> 00:46:05,400
so then what is it what is physics to

1272
00:46:10,309 --> 00:46:07,260
you then it's this empty abstraction

1273
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:10,319
right and Plato thinks the abstract is

1274
00:46:14,690 --> 00:46:12,480
greater than the concrete but he also

1275
00:46:17,569 --> 00:46:14,700
doesn't think the abstract is empty it

1276
00:46:18,829 --> 00:46:17,579
is contentful it is being itself but you

1277
00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:18,839
would only have a sense of that if you

1278
00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:20,880
built your way up through the concrete

1279
00:46:25,250 --> 00:46:24,000
to the abstract right yeah what I find

1280
00:46:27,470 --> 00:46:25,260
really interesting are kind of circling

1281
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:27,480
with this is and I love your thoughts is

1282
00:46:33,890 --> 00:46:30,720
it seems like there's a weird thing that

1283
00:46:36,589 --> 00:46:33,900
happens with studying UFOs in this whole

1284
00:46:38,329 --> 00:46:36,599
field that I've seen happen to so many

1285
00:46:39,829 --> 00:46:38,339
people over the last few years as I've

1286
00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:39,839
done this and I've it happened to myself

1287
00:46:43,849 --> 00:46:41,760
which is that

1288
00:46:45,410 --> 00:46:43,859
um you get into UF foes and then

1289
00:46:47,030 --> 00:46:45,420
suddenly you become much more concerned

1290
00:46:50,510 --> 00:46:47,040
about being a good person

1291
00:46:53,569 --> 00:46:50,520
and I in some ways I feel like I've had

1292
00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:53,579
a hard time putting on my finger on what

1293
00:46:57,710 --> 00:46:56,640
that connection is because because as we

1294
00:46:58,609 --> 00:46:57,720
were talking about to understand what

1295
00:47:01,010 --> 00:46:58,619
something is you have to kind of

1296
00:47:02,870 --> 00:47:01,020
understand what it's good for first and

1297
00:47:06,470 --> 00:47:02,880
if the in the UFO phenomenon seems to be

1298
00:47:08,569 --> 00:47:06,480
good for you know waking people up but

1299
00:47:11,390 --> 00:47:08,579
also giving them this new appreciation

1300
00:47:15,410 --> 00:47:11,400
like I went from believing that I needed

1301
00:47:17,510 --> 00:47:15,420
to act in the correct manner to

1302
00:47:19,069 --> 00:47:17,520
believing strongly that I need to think

1303
00:47:20,569 --> 00:47:19,079
in the right manner that like it's not

1304
00:47:23,569 --> 00:47:20,579
okay if I do the right thing if I've

1305
00:47:26,569 --> 00:47:23,579
just got Venom in my heart and it's hard

1306
00:47:30,109 --> 00:47:26,579
to explain

1307
00:47:32,270 --> 00:47:30,119
why that is exactly but I think that you

1308
00:47:34,730 --> 00:47:32,280
know gives us kind of a model because he

1309
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:34,740
talks about how

1310
00:47:39,050 --> 00:47:36,480
um I'll just read this quick section

1311
00:47:40,910 --> 00:47:39,060
that's my favorite in in the cave which

1312
00:47:43,130 --> 00:47:40,920
is that he says and if you assume that

1313
00:47:45,410 --> 00:47:43,140
the the ascent and contemplation of

1314
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:45,420
things above is the Soul's Ascension

1315
00:47:49,250 --> 00:47:47,040
into the intelligible region you will

1316
00:47:51,650 --> 00:47:49,260
not miss my meaning but God's knows

1317
00:47:53,569 --> 00:47:51,660
whether it's true but at any rate my

1318
00:47:55,849 --> 00:47:53,579
dream is it appears to me is that in the

1319
00:47:58,490 --> 00:47:55,859
region of the known the last thing to be

1320
00:48:00,829 --> 00:47:58,500
seen and hardly seen is the idea of good

1321
00:48:02,930 --> 00:48:00,839
and that when we see it must needs

1322
00:48:04,970 --> 00:48:02,940
points us to the conclusion that this is

1323
00:48:07,069 --> 00:48:04,980
indeed the cause for all things of all

1324
00:48:08,809 --> 00:48:07,079
that is right and beautiful giving birth

1325
00:48:10,849 --> 00:48:08,819
to the visible world and to the light

1326
00:48:12,290 --> 00:48:10,859
and the author of light and itself in

1327
00:48:14,750 --> 00:48:12,300
the intelligible World being the

1328
00:48:16,550 --> 00:48:14,760
authentic source of Truth and reason and

1329
00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:16,560
that anyone who is to act wisely in

1330
00:48:19,849 --> 00:48:18,480
private or public must have caught sight

1331
00:48:21,950 --> 00:48:19,859
of this

1332
00:48:24,050 --> 00:48:21,960
like what do you make of that section I

1333
00:48:27,410 --> 00:48:24,060
just find it it gets over a lot and I

1334
00:48:30,349 --> 00:48:27,420
find it to be so rich yeah well okay so

1335
00:48:32,210 --> 00:48:30,359
the last line you read

1336
00:48:34,550 --> 00:48:32,220
in that translation I think is really

1337
00:48:37,550 --> 00:48:34,560
excited decisive he's like anyone who

1338
00:48:39,410 --> 00:48:37,560
manages to be decent he thinks whether

1339
00:48:41,569 --> 00:48:39,420
they know it or not has caught sight of

1340
00:48:44,809 --> 00:48:41,579
this right right

1341
00:48:46,010 --> 00:48:44,819
um yeah okay so so he's so so what he's

1342
00:48:49,609 --> 00:48:46,020
saying is

1343
00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:49,619
okay implicit behind our ordinary

1344
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:52,740
everyday lives right

1345
00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:55,440
everybody has sort of he he really

1346
00:48:59,690 --> 00:48:57,359
thinks everybody to some degree has been

1347
00:49:02,270 --> 00:48:59,700
out of the cave right but we just forgot

1348
00:49:04,430 --> 00:49:02,280
it right okay so the

1349
00:49:06,950 --> 00:49:04,440
the Republic ends with this myth of UR

1350
00:49:09,410 --> 00:49:06,960
okay ER okay

1351
00:49:11,089 --> 00:49:09,420
um and it's it's the story about a

1352
00:49:13,970 --> 00:49:11,099
soldier who dies in battle and he was a

1353
00:49:15,109 --> 00:49:13,980
noble noble person and he goes into the

1354
00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:15,119
Afterlife and it's kind of a

1355
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:16,079
conventional Greek tale with the

1356
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:18,960
afterlife but there's uh

1357
00:49:23,030 --> 00:49:21,119
a moment where you know he's with all

1358
00:49:27,589 --> 00:49:23,040
these other Souls after their death okay

1359
00:49:29,990 --> 00:49:27,599
and there's sort of a a lottery over

1360
00:49:32,210 --> 00:49:30,000
like like who gets to be what as they

1361
00:49:34,069 --> 00:49:32,220
reincarnate okay and Plato makes it

1362
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:34,079
clear that like like basically there's a

1363
00:49:38,690 --> 00:49:36,000
lottery on the order of who of what you

1364
00:49:40,370 --> 00:49:38,700
get to pick okay and so if you win the

1365
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:40,380
lottery like I'm gonna go be a rich guy

1366
00:49:45,230 --> 00:49:41,760
or I'll be a really good looking person

1367
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:45,240
or I'll be this and he says that the the

1368
00:49:48,890 --> 00:49:47,280
truly good person doesn't care where

1369
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:48,900
they end up in the lottery

1370
00:49:53,450 --> 00:49:52,319
okay because no matter what they'll

1371
00:49:55,849 --> 00:49:53,460
remember

1372
00:49:58,010 --> 00:49:55,859
and they'll do well with what they have

1373
00:49:59,750 --> 00:49:58,020
whether they're rich or poor or or what

1374
00:50:01,849 --> 00:49:59,760
have you okay

1375
00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:01,859
um anyway so they have this this

1376
00:50:05,329 --> 00:50:03,119
experience in afterlife and then

1377
00:50:08,990 --> 00:50:05,339
everybody's going to get sent back to

1378
00:50:10,730 --> 00:50:09,000
uh the normal world right uh and they

1379
00:50:14,210 --> 00:50:10,740
have to sleep next to the river of

1380
00:50:17,569 --> 00:50:14,220
forgetfulness before they go okay but

1381
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:17,579
ER does not forget like he doesn't he

1382
00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:19,760
was a good person and he doesn't forget

1383
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:22,079
and he goes back to the afterlife

1384
00:50:26,210 --> 00:50:24,480
knowing where he's been before okay so

1385
00:50:28,609 --> 00:50:26,220
or it goes back to the before life right

1386
00:50:31,069 --> 00:50:28,619
he reincarnates knowing where he was

1387
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:31,079
before okay and so what's Plato's saying

1388
00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:32,880
there it's like

1389
00:50:37,970 --> 00:50:35,160
um what an enlightened person is right

1390
00:50:41,089 --> 00:50:37,980
is just someone who remembers

1391
00:50:43,130 --> 00:50:41,099
where are we all already were which is

1392
00:50:45,770 --> 00:50:43,140
in this intelligible Realm of the form

1393
00:50:48,230 --> 00:50:45,780
of the good do you see that and so

1394
00:50:50,089 --> 00:50:48,240
anyone who's doing well in their life is

1395
00:50:52,130 --> 00:50:50,099
acting according to that form

1396
00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:52,140
but it's the enlightened person who

1397
00:50:54,890 --> 00:50:53,760
knows why

1398
00:50:57,589 --> 00:50:54,900
because they've seen it and they

1399
00:50:59,809 --> 00:50:57,599
remember it do you see that right yeah

1400
00:51:02,030 --> 00:50:59,819
okay so yeah okay and so like so Plato

1401
00:51:04,490 --> 00:51:02,040
thinks yeah ultimately we like make up

1402
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:04,500
our little cave world and we do that why

1403
00:51:07,309 --> 00:51:06,000
because it's going to be what's best for

1404
00:51:09,710 --> 00:51:07,319
us and we're doing it for the sake of

1405
00:51:11,750 --> 00:51:09,720
the good etc etc etc the problem is is

1406
00:51:15,049 --> 00:51:11,760
most people though they do manage to be

1407
00:51:16,910 --> 00:51:15,059
more or less decent right don't know why

1408
00:51:19,549 --> 00:51:16,920
they're doing it right they haven't

1409
00:51:21,049 --> 00:51:19,559
remembered right and so you think of it

1410
00:51:23,809 --> 00:51:21,059
like for Plato

1411
00:51:24,890 --> 00:51:23,819
what is the antidote to death it's to

1412
00:51:27,950 --> 00:51:24,900
remember

1413
00:51:30,049 --> 00:51:27,960
what the real grounding of life is it's

1414
00:51:32,450 --> 00:51:30,059
in this ultimate good this mystical

1415
00:51:34,069 --> 00:51:32,460
thing that's out Beyond The Cave that

1416
00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:34,079
that that's the end of the book on death

1417
00:51:39,770 --> 00:51:37,980
is is er returns to normal temporal life

1418
00:51:42,410 --> 00:51:39,780
but with the knowledge that normal

1419
00:51:44,990 --> 00:51:42,420
temporal life is not the whole thing and

1420
00:51:47,750 --> 00:51:45,000
that other thing is guiding us right

1421
00:51:50,510 --> 00:51:47,760
right no that makes a lot of sense and

1422
00:51:52,309 --> 00:51:50,520
the it's also he's also giving us some

1423
00:51:53,690 --> 00:51:52,319
hints I think because I think it's

1424
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:53,700
really easy to say like oh it's for the

1425
00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:56,160
good but what is what is that you know

1426
00:52:01,010 --> 00:51:58,559
so like what what is the good and I

1427
00:52:03,109 --> 00:52:01,020
think like the he kind of gives us some

1428
00:52:05,450 --> 00:52:03,119
hints right with the fire and the sun

1429
00:52:07,010 --> 00:52:05,460
like what do you make of like those two

1430
00:52:09,470 --> 00:52:07,020
sources of light and what they tell us

1431
00:52:11,690 --> 00:52:09,480
about the light well okay so if you if

1432
00:52:13,309 --> 00:52:11,700
you look at what Plato says

1433
00:52:15,890 --> 00:52:13,319
about you know okay

1434
00:52:19,730 --> 00:52:15,900
what is the sun outside and he says well

1435
00:52:21,589 --> 00:52:19,740
the sun is is the source of the light by

1436
00:52:24,589 --> 00:52:21,599
which we see things

1437
00:52:28,190 --> 00:52:24,599
okay now so the idea there though is if

1438
00:52:30,290 --> 00:52:28,200
you you can't count the sun among the

1439
00:52:32,329 --> 00:52:30,300
things because it's the source by which

1440
00:52:35,089 --> 00:52:32,339
we see the things it's not one of the

1441
00:52:39,170 --> 00:52:35,099
things do you see that so what is the

1442
00:52:41,569 --> 00:52:39,180
good it's that which makes other being

1443
00:52:43,370 --> 00:52:41,579
makes beans become available to us like

1444
00:52:45,290 --> 00:52:43,380
we're gonna we're going to like

1445
00:52:46,670 --> 00:52:45,300
we're going to parcel out the world in

1446
00:52:47,690 --> 00:52:46,680
terms of like what is better and worse

1447
00:52:48,710 --> 00:52:47,700
and we're going to pursue what's better

1448
00:52:52,250 --> 00:52:48,720
and we're going to like avoid what's

1449
00:52:55,190 --> 00:52:52,260
worse okay so the good then is the light

1450
00:52:57,710 --> 00:52:55,200
that reveals things that way to us okay

1451
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:57,720
but then can we

1452
00:53:01,970 --> 00:53:00,000
there's no way to shed light on the

1453
00:53:04,190 --> 00:53:01,980
light by which we see

1454
00:53:06,530 --> 00:53:04,200
do you see the point there okay so right

1455
00:53:09,410 --> 00:53:06,540
so for Plato and this is like like the

1456
00:53:11,930 --> 00:53:09,420
like the problem is there is no way to

1457
00:53:13,849 --> 00:53:11,940
articulate this in the ordinary language

1458
00:53:16,609 --> 00:53:13,859
of the cave which is like what we're

1459
00:53:17,809 --> 00:53:16,619
trying to do right now right okay and

1460
00:53:19,069 --> 00:53:17,819
you might have heard me tell this

1461
00:53:20,569 --> 00:53:19,079
elsewhere there's an interesting moment

1462
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:20,579
where

1463
00:53:24,530 --> 00:53:22,559
after he tells the allegory

1464
00:53:25,790 --> 00:53:24,540
um one of the one of the other guys I

1465
00:53:27,170 --> 00:53:25,800
think it's I think it's glaucon again

1466
00:53:29,270 --> 00:53:27,180
it's usually glow account seems to be

1467
00:53:31,849 --> 00:53:29,280
the brighter one the two

1468
00:53:34,069 --> 00:53:31,859
um glaucom says so you know

1469
00:53:35,390 --> 00:53:34,079
gee it's like can we really ask the

1470
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:35,400
enlightened person to go back to the

1471
00:53:38,809 --> 00:53:37,200
cave right can we ask the philosopher to

1472
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:38,819
return to the city

1473
00:53:43,670 --> 00:53:41,280
and um because it seems like that's like

1474
00:53:45,230 --> 00:53:43,680
this terrible Injustice because he he is

1475
00:53:47,390 --> 00:53:45,240
seeing the light right he's been with

1476
00:53:49,069 --> 00:53:47,400
the good but he knows it's going to go

1477
00:53:51,049 --> 00:53:49,079
badly when he goes back because it's in

1478
00:53:52,549 --> 00:53:51,059
articulate it's missed it is Mystical

1479
00:53:54,650 --> 00:53:52,559
for Plato right

1480
00:53:57,710 --> 00:53:54,660
and um

1481
00:54:00,829 --> 00:53:57,720
Socrates says well okay it depends if

1482
00:54:02,750 --> 00:54:00,839
the city in fact educated him to the

1483
00:54:04,670 --> 00:54:02,760
point that

1484
00:54:05,930 --> 00:54:04,680
without it he would not have achieved

1485
00:54:08,510 --> 00:54:05,940
this Enlightenment then he owes it to

1486
00:54:10,490 --> 00:54:08,520
them to go back right but note that's

1487
00:54:13,309 --> 00:54:10,500
silly because that means there are

1488
00:54:14,750 --> 00:54:13,319
already philosophers running the city so

1489
00:54:16,790 --> 00:54:14,760
there would be no need for him to do

1490
00:54:20,329 --> 00:54:16,800
this do you see that okay right but then

1491
00:54:22,430 --> 00:54:20,339
Socrates says if this if he found his

1492
00:54:24,170 --> 00:54:22,440
Enlightenment in spite of the city not

1493
00:54:25,250 --> 00:54:24,180
because of it he has no obligation to go

1494
00:54:28,370 --> 00:54:25,260
back

1495
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:28,380
okay okay and you could see what my read

1496
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:29,520
on this is

1497
00:54:34,130 --> 00:54:31,200
if you if you look at like the earlier

1498
00:54:35,690 --> 00:54:34,140
dialogues with Socrates uh Plato claims

1499
00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:35,700
that you know Socrates really nobody

1500
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:37,440
wanted to punish him really like they

1501
00:54:41,210 --> 00:54:39,599
they they said yeah we think you're

1502
00:54:44,270 --> 00:54:41,220
guilty but what you've done isn't that

1503
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:44,280
bad what like take a plea bargain and he

1504
00:54:47,870 --> 00:54:46,079
said well the only fitting punishment

1505
00:54:48,950 --> 00:54:47,880
for me would be like a lifetime pension

1506
00:54:50,390 --> 00:54:48,960
because I'm the best thing that happened

1507
00:54:53,930 --> 00:54:50,400
to Athens right so then they're like

1508
00:54:56,030 --> 00:54:53,940
okay so we we have to kill you and then

1509
00:54:57,710 --> 00:54:56,040
um while he's in prison he the nobody

1510
00:54:59,690 --> 00:54:57,720
wanted to kill him and they bribed the

1511
00:55:02,030 --> 00:54:59,700
guards and said just take off and don't

1512
00:55:05,630 --> 00:55:02,040
come back to the city right and he

1513
00:55:07,609 --> 00:55:05,640
chooses to stay why because he says it

1514
00:55:10,130 --> 00:55:07,619
would be like betraying my parents I

1515
00:55:12,349 --> 00:55:10,140
can't do that I I owe my life to Athens

1516
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:12,359
right okay

1517
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:15,359
um but so what but what's Plato saying

1518
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:17,520
here later on is

1519
00:55:22,010 --> 00:55:19,440
he shouldn't have stayed he should have

1520
00:55:24,109 --> 00:55:22,020
left like this this was futile it was a

1521
00:55:27,109 --> 00:55:24,119
Fool's errand the philosopher should

1522
00:55:28,930 --> 00:55:27,119
like achieve enlightenment and you're

1523
00:55:32,510 --> 00:55:28,940
better off not going back

1524
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:32,520
that's right yeah but uh in another

1525
00:55:36,650 --> 00:55:34,319
moment in the Republic he says you know

1526
00:55:39,829 --> 00:55:36,660
even the best city which is even the

1527
00:55:42,829 --> 00:55:39,839
best soul at some point is going to fall

1528
00:55:44,809 --> 00:55:42,839
prey to attachment and sexuality you're

1529
00:55:47,210 --> 00:55:44,819
going to love things you're going to

1530
00:55:49,670 --> 00:55:47,220
love people right which will bring you

1531
00:55:52,690 --> 00:55:49,680
back into the cave all right so I think

1532
00:55:55,130 --> 00:55:52,700
Plato's view here is ultimately kind of

1533
00:55:56,630 --> 00:55:55,140
romantic ironic like we're going to

1534
00:55:58,910 --> 00:55:56,640
achieve an Enlightenment but we hope we

1535
00:56:00,710 --> 00:55:58,920
can right that Enlightenment will be

1536
00:56:02,150 --> 00:56:00,720
inarticulate to others and it will be

1537
00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:02,160
very difficult to go back but because

1538
00:56:05,930 --> 00:56:04,319
we're bodied humans we're going to love

1539
00:56:08,630 --> 00:56:05,940
things back in the real world or the

1540
00:56:11,329 --> 00:56:08,640
other world and and ultimately kind of

1541
00:56:13,309 --> 00:56:11,339
like go there and meet frustration does

1542
00:56:15,470 --> 00:56:13,319
that make sense yeah this is kind of the

1543
00:56:17,569 --> 00:56:15,480
pessimism of the book right

1544
00:56:19,970 --> 00:56:17,579
right and so what do I think about so I

1545
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:19,980
what so I think when we if we think of

1546
00:56:24,170 --> 00:56:21,839
like the UFO phenomena just one more

1547
00:56:26,690 --> 00:56:24,180
case of the thing Beyond trying to pull

1548
00:56:28,069 --> 00:56:26,700
us up right and then we go out there and

1549
00:56:29,450 --> 00:56:28,079
we pursue it maybe we see something

1550
00:56:31,250 --> 00:56:29,460
maybe it brings us to some conclusion

1551
00:56:32,990 --> 00:56:31,260
some Enlightenment and then we try to

1552
00:56:34,430 --> 00:56:33,000
like go back to the Muggle world and

1553
00:56:35,930 --> 00:56:34,440
articulate that

1554
00:56:37,549 --> 00:56:35,940
Plato would say

1555
00:56:39,109 --> 00:56:37,559
you're gonna do it because you love the

1556
00:56:40,849 --> 00:56:39,119
Muggle World there are Muggles you love

1557
00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:40,859
right but he does not think it's going

1558
00:56:45,770 --> 00:56:43,920
to end well for you yeah right yeah I

1559
00:56:47,630 --> 00:56:45,780
can see that I

1560
00:56:49,549 --> 00:56:47,640
it's I think what's interesting about

1561
00:56:53,030 --> 00:56:49,559
the the period that we're in right now

1562
00:56:55,010 --> 00:56:53,040
is that it's at least conceivable in a

1563
00:56:57,670 --> 00:56:55,020
way that it hasn't been at least as far

1564
00:57:00,530 --> 00:56:57,680
as long as I've been alive

1565
00:57:03,049 --> 00:57:00,540
is not out there I don't come around

1566
00:57:05,150 --> 00:57:03,059
right right right well and also we have

1567
00:57:08,390 --> 00:57:05,160
the opportunity for like our Co for our

1568
00:57:10,309 --> 00:57:08,400
to change the cave in a way like like it

1569
00:57:12,770 --> 00:57:10,319
doesn't eliminate the cave it doesn't

1570
00:57:15,349 --> 00:57:12,780
eradicate the problem but it would

1571
00:57:17,809 --> 00:57:15,359
suddenly it makes it possible to talk

1572
00:57:19,250 --> 00:57:17,819
about some things inside of the cave

1573
00:57:20,870 --> 00:57:19,260
that maybe you weren't able to before

1574
00:57:23,930 --> 00:57:20,880
yeah you know and this is something that

1575
00:57:26,270 --> 00:57:23,940
because I'm I'm this like grouchy old

1576
00:57:28,010 --> 00:57:26,280
you know guy right okay so this is

1577
00:57:29,089 --> 00:57:28,020
something like Diana in some of our

1578
00:57:32,150 --> 00:57:29,099
conversations actually helped me with is

1579
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:32,160
like but Plato formed an academy

1580
00:57:36,230 --> 00:57:34,319
he brought students around him he formed

1581
00:57:38,210 --> 00:57:36,240
a community of people who sought

1582
00:57:40,430 --> 00:57:38,220
Enlightenment helped bring them to

1583
00:57:42,829 --> 00:57:40,440
Enlightenment right

1584
00:57:44,510 --> 00:57:42,839
um here we are right you know we're

1585
00:57:46,190 --> 00:57:44,520
talking about this right okay you know

1586
00:57:48,349 --> 00:57:46,200
you have all sorts of friends in this

1587
00:57:51,530 --> 00:57:48,359
now so it does seem to be like like

1588
00:57:52,849 --> 00:57:51,540
Plato's if I'm right is his pessimism

1589
00:57:55,250 --> 00:57:52,859
though it seems to maybe be a little

1590
00:57:57,349 --> 00:57:55,260
disingenuous because here he is in a

1591
00:57:58,790 --> 00:57:57,359
community of like-minded enlightened

1592
00:58:00,770 --> 00:57:58,800
people that he was writing these texts

1593
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:00,780
for and with and educating do you see

1594
00:58:04,549 --> 00:58:03,359
that right I think though the caution is

1595
00:58:06,710 --> 00:58:04,559
and I think this was implicit in what

1596
00:58:08,930 --> 00:58:06,720
you just said is to say look

1597
00:58:10,849 --> 00:58:08,940
when we take this back to the cave

1598
00:58:14,809 --> 00:58:10,859
Cave's gonna cave

1599
00:58:16,910 --> 00:58:14,819
right yeah it's going to be co-opted

1600
00:58:19,490 --> 00:58:16,920
into you know like you know people

1601
00:58:22,069 --> 00:58:19,500
profiteering and grifting on like bad

1602
00:58:23,390 --> 00:58:22,079
you know sham documentaries right I mean

1603
00:58:26,270 --> 00:58:23,400
maybe that happens right you saying okay

1604
00:58:27,950 --> 00:58:26,280
okay for sure right or or you know like

1605
00:58:29,750 --> 00:58:27,960
like Jacque Valley will point out to you

1606
00:58:31,730 --> 00:58:29,760
all this spooky psyops that the

1607
00:58:33,950 --> 00:58:31,740
government has done with this cave is

1608
00:58:36,650 --> 00:58:33,960
gonna cave right but that doesn't mean

1609
00:58:39,349 --> 00:58:36,660
we can't get together with other scare

1610
00:58:42,770 --> 00:58:39,359
quote philosophers right and have

1611
00:58:44,210 --> 00:58:42,780
genuine human Commerce about this right

1612
00:58:45,530 --> 00:58:44,220
um do you see that but I think what I

1613
00:58:46,730 --> 00:58:45,540
would say don't think this is going to

1614
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:46,740
like

1615
00:58:52,430 --> 00:58:49,440
resolve The Human Condition

1616
00:58:54,589 --> 00:58:52,440
on a grand scale it might resolve Jim's

1617
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:54,599
condition or help that it might resolve

1618
00:58:58,549 --> 00:58:56,880
Kelly's condition or like create our

1619
00:59:01,970 --> 00:58:58,559
friendship so we can go together as

1620
00:59:04,609 --> 00:59:01,980
Scholars to to figure this out but it's

1621
00:59:05,930 --> 00:59:04,619
not going to be you know it's it's not

1622
00:59:07,069 --> 00:59:05,940
going to make America great again it's

1623
00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:07,079
not the Hope we've been waiting for

1624
00:59:11,410 --> 00:59:08,880
politically right you know what I mean

1625
00:59:15,230 --> 00:59:11,420
right right right I think there's a

1626
00:59:16,609 --> 00:59:15,240
there's a Temptation yeah and and it's

1627
00:59:18,349 --> 00:59:16,619
something I'm actually really intrigued

1628
00:59:19,849 --> 00:59:18,359
by which is that I mean I think you know

1629
00:59:22,250 --> 00:59:19,859
people listen to the other interviews I

1630
00:59:25,490 --> 00:59:22,260
am a little I'm suspicious of technology

1631
00:59:28,490 --> 00:59:25,500
and of what that of what that is but I'm

1632
00:59:30,890 --> 00:59:28,500
also at the same time I sometimes wonder

1633
00:59:34,010 --> 00:59:30,900
if technology doesn't give us an or

1634
00:59:37,549 --> 00:59:34,020
can't give us an ability to

1635
00:59:38,930 --> 00:59:37,559
um hack the cave in a way not not that

1636
00:59:41,630 --> 00:59:38,940
you can you can't get rid of the cave

1637
00:59:44,690 --> 00:59:41,640
and you can't save everyone but it does

1638
00:59:46,670 --> 00:59:44,700
feel like if you're able to talk to a

1639
00:59:49,250 --> 00:59:46,680
lot of people at once and like we're

1640
00:59:50,569 --> 00:59:49,260
doing right now this conversation anyone

1641
00:59:53,510 --> 00:59:50,579
who's listening to this this is an

1642
00:59:56,089 --> 00:59:53,520
entirely Independent Media Channel

1643
00:59:59,049 --> 00:59:56,099
That's reaching people I I'm listening

1644
01:00:01,190 --> 00:59:59,059
to a 96 different countries you know

1645
01:00:02,329 --> 01:00:01,200
so it's not I mean we're not going to

1646
01:00:03,410 --> 01:00:02,339
get everybody we're not even going to

1647
01:00:05,329 --> 01:00:03,420
get like a small fraction of everybody

1648
01:00:06,710 --> 01:00:05,339
but there's there seems this way that

1649
01:00:08,450 --> 01:00:06,720
you can start to

1650
01:00:10,190 --> 01:00:08,460
go back into the cave and at least find

1651
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:10,200
the people who are ready to listen yeah

1652
01:00:13,730 --> 01:00:11,760
who are ready you know who've had a

1653
01:00:15,950 --> 01:00:13,740
glimpse and are looking for and it seems

1654
01:00:17,390 --> 01:00:15,960
it feels that gives me some hope and

1655
01:00:19,309 --> 01:00:17,400
that's like the optimism that I find in

1656
01:00:22,910 --> 01:00:19,319
technology right but

1657
01:00:25,549 --> 01:00:22,920
so look I I mean and you've seen some of

1658
01:00:28,849 --> 01:00:25,559
my like my course on hydrogen technology

1659
01:00:30,170 --> 01:00:28,859
and and uh I can get pretty grouchy

1660
01:00:32,270 --> 01:00:30,180
about technology because once again I'm

1661
01:00:35,829 --> 01:00:32,280
like a you know grouchy gen xer right

1662
01:00:38,450 --> 01:00:35,839
and I mean I I got my first cell phone

1663
01:00:39,650 --> 01:00:38,460
gosh I mean I don't think I I think I

1664
01:00:43,069 --> 01:00:39,660
don't think I've had a cell phone for

1665
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:43,079
five years okay so I've I was late into

1666
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:45,599
it okay but there's a a very good friend

1667
01:00:50,329 --> 01:00:48,960
of mine uh a guy named IJ Markham who uh

1668
01:00:52,430 --> 01:00:50,339
co-host

1669
01:00:54,470 --> 01:00:52,440
a podcast called the causing gram

1670
01:00:56,750 --> 01:00:54,480
dialogue and I was so the first the

1671
01:00:58,430 --> 01:00:56,760
first podcast I was on right

1672
01:00:59,809 --> 01:00:58,440
and I remember I was really reluctant to

1673
01:01:02,990 --> 01:00:59,819
it because I was like all anti-social

1674
01:01:04,730 --> 01:01:03,000
media and all this stuff but you know

1675
01:01:06,829 --> 01:01:04,740
going on that show led to like a pretty

1676
01:01:08,690 --> 01:01:06,839
profound friendship that I have with IJ

1677
01:01:11,690 --> 01:01:08,700
Okay and like we've never met in person

1678
01:01:13,430 --> 01:01:11,700
all right and it's led to us like doing

1679
01:01:15,109 --> 01:01:13,440
some very interesting conversations and

1680
01:01:17,270 --> 01:01:15,119
it's like it's like made me a better

1681
01:01:20,750 --> 01:01:17,280
person and all this and it's all been

1682
01:01:21,470 --> 01:01:20,760
mediated through this technology Okay so

1683
01:01:24,289 --> 01:01:21,480
um

1684
01:01:26,809 --> 01:01:24,299
you know I like I do think I don't think

1685
01:01:28,609 --> 01:01:26,819
technology is entirely neutral because I

1686
01:01:31,430 --> 01:01:28,619
do think it does change us it's not like

1687
01:01:34,250 --> 01:01:31,440
we enter into it unscathed okay right

1688
01:01:36,829 --> 01:01:34,260
but I also don't think there was ever a

1689
01:01:39,170 --> 01:01:36,839
pre-human a pre-technological human

1690
01:01:41,089 --> 01:01:39,180
moment I think like like being like

1691
01:01:43,730 --> 01:01:41,099
being us is

1692
01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:43,740
to be tool users right even language is

1693
01:01:48,049 --> 01:01:46,319
a kind of technological offloading of

1694
01:01:50,630 --> 01:01:48,059
data into our environment and all that

1695
01:01:52,130 --> 01:01:50,640
okay so one there's not There's No Going

1696
01:01:55,190 --> 01:01:52,140
Back to Before Tech because there's no

1697
01:01:56,569 --> 01:01:55,200
before tech for us okay all right and I

1698
01:01:59,990 --> 01:01:56,579
think what we're seeing was baked in the

1699
01:02:02,049 --> 01:02:00,000
cake from the very beginning right and I

1700
01:02:04,730 --> 01:02:02,059
have gotten better about just admitting

1701
01:02:07,130 --> 01:02:04,740
there is a quite a bit of good that's

1702
01:02:08,770 --> 01:02:07,140
come with this not just in terms of

1703
01:02:11,030 --> 01:02:08,780
Commerce right but just in terms of

1704
01:02:12,470 --> 01:02:11,040
interpersonal Human Relationships like I

1705
01:02:15,049 --> 01:02:12,480
would have never met you Kelly right

1706
01:02:17,690 --> 01:02:15,059
yeah the conversation with this like

1707
01:02:19,069 --> 01:02:17,700
very bright person right if it weren't

1708
01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:19,079
for technology I wouldn't have met Diana

1709
01:02:22,010 --> 01:02:20,640
I wouldn't have met my friend IJ right

1710
01:02:23,510 --> 01:02:22,020
do you know what I mean I wouldn't

1711
01:02:25,670 --> 01:02:23,520
you know like think of how much better

1712
01:02:27,410 --> 01:02:25,680
my relationship is with my kids who live

1713
01:02:29,809 --> 01:02:27,420
across oceans because of the tech right

1714
01:02:31,970 --> 01:02:29,819
you know so I do think I do think there

1715
01:02:33,890 --> 01:02:31,980
is something too you know that

1716
01:02:35,809 --> 01:02:33,900
We're not gonna like we're not gonna go

1717
01:02:38,089 --> 01:02:35,819
back because there is no back to go to

1718
01:02:40,490 --> 01:02:38,099
and moreover

1719
01:02:42,289 --> 01:02:40,500
um whatever is going to count for like

1720
01:02:44,390 --> 01:02:42,299
moving us into a more Humane Direction

1721
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:44,400
it's got to be from within this Paradigm

1722
01:02:48,650 --> 01:02:45,839
of Technology because there's no other

1723
01:02:51,049 --> 01:02:48,660
option right and we would lose so much

1724
01:02:53,150 --> 01:02:51,059
yeah right well and I think what I see

1725
01:02:54,349 --> 01:02:53,160
so much through my own experience and

1726
01:02:56,809 --> 01:02:54,359
through just being a part of this

1727
01:03:00,049 --> 01:02:56,819
community and UFO Twitter for all of its

1728
01:03:02,030 --> 01:03:00,059
uh you know problems is you know that's

1729
01:03:03,170 --> 01:03:02,040
where I found my community and that's

1730
01:03:04,309 --> 01:03:03,180
where you know that's how I met you

1731
01:03:06,950 --> 01:03:04,319
that's how I met Diana that's how I met

1732
01:03:09,710 --> 01:03:06,960
all of my friends in this space and if I

1733
01:03:10,849 --> 01:03:09,720
had gone through this that experience or

1734
01:03:12,589 --> 01:03:10,859
the first time you look over your

1735
01:03:13,970 --> 01:03:12,599
shoulder and realize you're in the cave

1736
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:13,980
and there's something else back there

1737
01:03:19,130 --> 01:03:16,559
right you know I don't

1738
01:03:21,230 --> 01:03:19,140
it it's really profound and it's it's so

1739
01:03:22,730 --> 01:03:21,240
hard you know as it's as it's sort of

1740
01:03:24,289 --> 01:03:22,740
we've talked about throughout this and

1741
01:03:27,109 --> 01:03:24,299
as sort of has demonstrated throughout

1742
01:03:29,030 --> 01:03:27,119
the cave it's a really difficult it's

1743
01:03:32,030 --> 01:03:29,040
not for wusses it's a very intense

1744
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:32,040
process and if I hadn't been finding

1745
01:03:35,690 --> 01:03:33,599
other people going through the same

1746
01:03:37,910 --> 01:03:35,700
thing is really critical but to find

1747
01:03:40,970 --> 01:03:37,920
those people in your own life

1748
01:03:44,510 --> 01:03:40,980
who are also at that same stage of

1749
01:03:46,130 --> 01:03:44,520
waking up is I can only do that really

1750
01:03:47,930 --> 01:03:46,140
because of the technology that we have

1751
01:03:49,670 --> 01:03:47,940
now I would be completely alone in this

1752
01:03:50,930 --> 01:03:49,680
otherwise because I don't have anyone

1753
01:03:54,230 --> 01:03:50,940
else in my life that's going through

1754
01:03:56,210 --> 01:03:54,240
going through this and so in a way we

1755
01:03:58,309 --> 01:03:56,220
can sort of form we can form little like

1756
01:04:02,390 --> 01:03:58,319
cave escape teams that are remotely

1757
01:04:04,430 --> 01:04:02,400
dispersed I I agree and I think I okay

1758
01:04:06,710 --> 01:04:04,440
so here's the deal so nothing is

1759
01:04:10,069 --> 01:04:06,720
creating a deeper cave for us than

1760
01:04:12,650 --> 01:04:10,079
technology right now okay true but at

1761
01:04:14,089 --> 01:04:12,660
the same time nothing is giving us a

1762
01:04:17,150 --> 01:04:14,099
means to carve out of it quite like

1763
01:04:19,490 --> 01:04:17,160
technology is right now right so you

1764
01:04:21,049 --> 01:04:19,500
know how many books would I not have

1765
01:04:22,010 --> 01:04:21,059
read that I've read if it weren't for

1766
01:04:24,109 --> 01:04:22,020
Amazon

1767
01:04:25,730 --> 01:04:24,119
right right after minute okay you know

1768
01:04:27,530 --> 01:04:25,740
and and this is me showing like what a

1769
01:04:29,089 --> 01:04:27,540
terrible scholar I am now when I want to

1770
01:04:31,490 --> 01:04:29,099
look up a book I don't go to the library

1771
01:04:33,650 --> 01:04:31,500
website in my college I go to Amazon now

1772
01:04:36,410 --> 01:04:33,660
right right just like the search engines

1773
01:04:38,030 --> 01:04:36,420
faster and stuff like that you know so

1774
01:04:39,770 --> 01:04:38,040
um and so I have to admit like there it

1775
01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:39,780
is and I like how you put that is like

1776
01:04:42,730 --> 01:04:41,760
maybe what we can do now is form these

1777
01:04:46,190 --> 01:04:42,740
kind of like

1778
01:04:48,530 --> 01:04:46,200
platonic academies of the internet right

1779
01:04:50,750 --> 01:04:48,540
you know what I mean where like here we

1780
01:04:52,670 --> 01:04:50,760
are we're like we're stuck in Athens

1781
01:04:54,950 --> 01:04:52,680
which is completely unenlightened and

1782
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:54,960
like going into like cultural like like

1783
01:05:01,730 --> 01:04:58,799
chaos right but yet maybe we could form

1784
01:05:04,190 --> 01:05:01,740
platonic academies of people seeking

1785
01:05:05,809 --> 01:05:04,200
Enlightenment right it's funny to think

1786
01:05:07,309 --> 01:05:05,819
of though considering that Plato like

1787
01:05:09,170 --> 01:05:07,319
didn't even really want to write because

1788
01:05:12,530 --> 01:05:09,180
he felt like that was like a bridge too

1789
01:05:14,210 --> 01:05:12,540
far with technology yeah exactly yeah um

1790
01:05:15,950 --> 01:05:14,220
yeah yeah

1791
01:05:17,930 --> 01:05:15,960
it's interesting though but that he did

1792
01:05:18,950 --> 01:05:17,940
right and and it's also you have to be

1793
01:05:22,370 --> 01:05:18,960
careful

1794
01:05:24,349 --> 01:05:22,380
um he has Socrates say that

1795
01:05:25,609 --> 01:05:24,359
now was that Plato's view or not it's so

1796
01:05:27,890 --> 01:05:25,619
hard to tell because like like the

1797
01:05:29,750 --> 01:05:27,900
episode I just alluded to earlier that's

1798
01:05:33,349 --> 01:05:29,760
clearly him trying to like disagree with

1799
01:05:35,569 --> 01:05:33,359
Socrates from another dialogue right

1800
01:05:37,250 --> 01:05:35,579
um so but but I I do think I do think

1801
01:05:38,809 --> 01:05:37,260
it's clear that Plato thought because he

1802
01:05:41,030 --> 01:05:38,819
did write in dialogue though at least

1803
01:05:43,010 --> 01:05:41,040
his the writings we have of his and it

1804
01:05:44,089 --> 01:05:43,020
seems like the most important ones and

1805
01:05:47,329 --> 01:05:44,099
and what's he trying to do he's trying

1806
01:05:49,130 --> 01:05:47,339
to reproduce the experience of speaking

1807
01:05:51,109 --> 01:05:49,140
face to face to somebody as much as

1808
01:05:52,549 --> 01:05:51,119
possible Right rather than ready to

1809
01:05:54,829 --> 01:05:52,559
treat us you know

1810
01:05:56,630 --> 01:05:54,839
so then and then um though now that

1811
01:05:57,829 --> 01:05:56,640
we've kind of moved to this uh

1812
01:06:00,530 --> 01:05:57,839
increasing on the internet this kind of

1813
01:06:02,329 --> 01:06:00,540
podcast conversation right

1814
01:06:04,010 --> 01:06:02,339
to what degree are we just maybe now

1815
01:06:06,410 --> 01:06:04,020
we're reproducing the platonic

1816
01:06:08,089 --> 01:06:06,420
dialogical experience right

1817
01:06:10,789 --> 01:06:08,099
do you know what I mean like rather than

1818
01:06:12,829 --> 01:06:10,799
writing books now

1819
01:06:14,690 --> 01:06:12,839
it seems like the way to like

1820
01:06:17,450 --> 01:06:14,700
communicate ideas is to have a

1821
01:06:18,890 --> 01:06:17,460
conversation on a podcast right what did

1822
01:06:20,089 --> 01:06:18,900
Plato do he seemed to like reject

1823
01:06:21,829 --> 01:06:20,099
writing books because it was so

1824
01:06:23,870 --> 01:06:21,839
artificial instead wrote in dialogues

1825
01:06:27,049 --> 01:06:23,880
right well you and I have just been

1826
01:06:29,270 --> 01:06:27,059
writing a dialogue for the last hour

1827
01:06:30,829 --> 01:06:29,280
you know what I mean exactly but there's

1828
01:06:34,190 --> 01:06:30,839
also a way in which our technology has

1829
01:06:35,809 --> 01:06:34,200
like obliterated the dialogue in that

1830
01:06:37,190 --> 01:06:35,819
I mean even just the way we approach

1831
01:06:38,750 --> 01:06:37,200
each other like when you go on Twitter

1832
01:06:41,750 --> 01:06:38,760
you know I'm all what I love about

1833
01:06:44,529 --> 01:06:41,760
reading Plato is that when you know

1834
01:06:47,089 --> 01:06:44,539
throughout the dialogue he'll challenge

1835
01:06:49,430 --> 01:06:47,099
someone's thought like like he'll

1836
01:06:50,870 --> 01:06:49,440
challenge someone's idea and then that

1837
01:06:54,170 --> 01:06:50,880
person will be like well by God you're

1838
01:06:57,710 --> 01:06:54,180
right you know there's a there's a

1839
01:07:00,349 --> 01:06:57,720
willingness for people to both put up

1840
01:07:02,150 --> 01:07:00,359
ideas but also to have somebody come and

1841
01:07:03,410 --> 01:07:02,160
knock them down and you're like not

1842
01:07:06,529 --> 01:07:03,420
pissed about it you're like well that's

1843
01:07:09,410 --> 01:07:06,539
a great Point moving on you know no yeah

1844
01:07:12,529 --> 01:07:09,420
I agree like so uh once again it's it's

1845
01:07:14,329 --> 01:07:12,539
the ever two-edged sword of of

1846
01:07:16,130 --> 01:07:14,339
Technology on the one hand

1847
01:07:17,870 --> 01:07:16,140
we're having we're like recreating

1848
01:07:19,730 --> 01:07:17,880
dialogue right and and we're having

1849
01:07:21,770 --> 01:07:19,740
concerts wouldn't have had but also

1850
01:07:24,049 --> 01:07:21,780
it's been manipulated to take people

1851
01:07:25,789 --> 01:07:24,059
down rabbit holes in the bad sense but

1852
01:07:27,710 --> 01:07:25,799
we're for some rabbit holes right down

1853
01:07:29,390 --> 01:07:27,720
these rabbit holes of self-affirmation

1854
01:07:31,870 --> 01:07:29,400
so that they don't know how to deal with

1855
01:07:34,010 --> 01:07:31,880
somebody who disagrees with them right

1856
01:07:35,870 --> 01:07:34,020
uh rather than it being used to have

1857
01:07:37,670 --> 01:07:35,880
these alternate dialogues where uh you

1858
01:07:39,349 --> 01:07:37,680
know Kelly and Jim are perfectly free to

1859
01:07:41,510 --> 01:07:39,359
disagree with each other right because

1860
01:07:47,270 --> 01:07:41,520
we're committed to the truth not to

1861
01:08:08,890 --> 01:07:56,410
[Music]

1862
01:08:08,900 --> 01:08:13,120
thank you

1863
01:08:13,130 --> 01:08:35,689
[Music]

1864
01:09:24,010 --> 01:08:37,889
foreign

1865
01:09:25,559 --> 01:09:24,020
[Music]

1866
01:09:38,809 --> 01:09:25,569
thank you

1867
01:09:39,660 --> 01:09:38,819
[Music]

1868
01:10:15,000 --> 01:09:39,670
foreign

1869
01:10:22,310 --> 01:10:20,050
[Music]

1870
01:10:23,450 --> 01:10:22,320
we're talking about technology and one

1871
01:10:25,490 --> 01:10:23,460
of your emails to me you said something

1872
01:10:27,890 --> 01:10:25,500
really interesting which was you said

1873
01:10:29,450 --> 01:10:27,900
that you felt like Diana really hit the

1874
01:10:31,790 --> 01:10:29,460
nail on the head in the last interview

1875
01:10:33,290 --> 01:10:31,800
when she says that Jacques filet

1876
01:10:35,689 --> 01:10:33,300
personifies Heidegger's question

1877
01:10:36,950 --> 01:10:35,699
concerning technology can you say more

1878
01:10:40,490 --> 01:10:36,960
about that I find that really intriguing

1879
01:10:43,310 --> 01:10:40,500
sure okay so and I can't remember if

1880
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:43,320
um Diana reproduced this quotation in

1881
01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:44,880
the conversation but

1882
01:10:49,750 --> 01:10:47,040
uh there's a in Heidegger's original

1883
01:10:52,310 --> 01:10:49,760
essay the question certain technology

1884
01:10:56,090 --> 01:10:52,320
he uh

1885
01:10:57,950 --> 01:10:56,100
quotes the poet her limb by saying where

1886
01:11:00,229 --> 01:10:57,960
the saving power where the greatest

1887
01:11:01,790 --> 01:11:00,239
danger lies there too lies the saving

1888
01:11:02,870 --> 01:11:01,800
power so where we find the greatest

1889
01:11:06,229 --> 01:11:02,880
Danger

1890
01:11:08,930 --> 01:11:06,239
there we find the saving power okay and

1891
01:11:12,590 --> 01:11:08,940
the greatest danger of Technology

1892
01:11:15,050 --> 01:11:12,600
for Heidegger is not that we're gonna

1893
01:11:16,370 --> 01:11:15,060
um necessarily nuke ourselves right

1894
01:11:19,189 --> 01:11:16,380
although he's worried about that it's

1895
01:11:22,370 --> 01:11:19,199
not okay it's not just that we'll

1896
01:11:24,110 --> 01:11:22,380
maybe like undo ourselves with our own

1897
01:11:26,570 --> 01:11:24,120
transhumanist Ambitions or something

1898
01:11:29,810 --> 01:11:26,580
like that okay for him the greatest

1899
01:11:33,290 --> 01:11:29,820
danger is a kind of obliviousness to

1900
01:11:35,510 --> 01:11:33,300
being okay it that that

1901
01:11:38,149 --> 01:11:35,520
as as

1902
01:11:40,729 --> 01:11:38,159
humans

1903
01:11:42,530 --> 01:11:40,739
more and more offload responsibility for

1904
01:11:45,290 --> 01:11:42,540
themselves onto their machines onto

1905
01:11:47,750 --> 01:11:45,300
technology okay that we'll just quit

1906
01:11:50,330 --> 01:11:47,760
really caring about the questions

1907
01:11:52,790 --> 01:11:50,340
anymore okay that will become

1908
01:11:55,669 --> 01:11:52,800
Sleepwalkers okay that like what is

1909
01:11:57,950 --> 01:11:55,679
distinctively human is going to to end

1910
01:12:00,350 --> 01:11:57,960
and instead will just become

1911
01:12:02,209 --> 01:12:00,360
will become more machine-like the more

1912
01:12:04,189 --> 01:12:02,219
we like Define ourselves in terms of our

1913
01:12:05,330 --> 01:12:04,199
Machine Technologies okay

1914
01:12:07,490 --> 01:12:05,340
that's

1915
01:12:09,770 --> 01:12:07,500
probably a too quick a character but

1916
01:12:11,030 --> 01:12:09,780
that's what he's up to okay

1917
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:11,040
and

1918
01:12:14,810 --> 01:12:13,199
um but Heidegger people Miss This in

1919
01:12:16,370 --> 01:12:14,820
high degree he's not saying therefore we

1920
01:12:18,169 --> 01:12:16,380
should all go and like become

1921
01:12:19,430 --> 01:12:18,179
hunter-gatherers now because what he

1922
01:12:20,870 --> 01:12:19,440
doesn't think that's possible the ship

1923
01:12:22,570 --> 01:12:20,880
has sailed and he's very quick to point

1924
01:12:25,149 --> 01:12:22,580
out there was never a

1925
01:12:27,770 --> 01:12:25,159
non-tool-using version of humanity okay

1926
01:12:29,570 --> 01:12:27,780
and he so then he says so like where

1927
01:12:31,310 --> 01:12:29,580
we're going to find the saving power

1928
01:12:33,890 --> 01:12:31,320
is actually with from within the

1929
01:12:35,330 --> 01:12:33,900
technological Paradigm somehow okay

1930
01:12:38,510 --> 01:12:35,340
and

1931
01:12:41,149 --> 01:12:38,520
um I find it fascinating that valet is

1932
01:12:43,370 --> 01:12:41,159
himself one of the leading technologists

1933
01:12:44,689 --> 01:12:43,380
of our times right you know he has had

1934
01:12:46,250 --> 01:12:44,699
this hand in the development of the

1935
01:12:49,729 --> 01:12:46,260
internet and you know he's a computer

1936
01:12:52,310 --> 01:12:49,739
scientist and all this okay but I do

1937
01:12:55,850 --> 01:12:52,320
think if you look at very carefully

1938
01:12:59,209 --> 01:12:55,860
almost all of his books okay

1939
01:13:00,709 --> 01:12:59,219
he seems to be very worried about the

1940
01:13:03,709 --> 01:13:00,719
technological question and like what

1941
01:13:05,810 --> 01:13:03,719
it's doing to us right uh and it's

1942
01:13:07,149 --> 01:13:05,820
interesting I don't think in any of his

1943
01:13:10,669 --> 01:13:07,159
books

1944
01:13:13,010 --> 01:13:10,679
the so-called aliens or the phenomena

1945
01:13:14,870 --> 01:13:13,020
are the main stars its people are the

1946
01:13:15,770 --> 01:13:14,880
main stars and he like if you think of

1947
01:13:19,550 --> 01:13:15,780
like

1948
01:13:21,350 --> 01:13:19,560
he do he goes through all these cases of

1949
01:13:24,229 --> 01:13:21,360
these people have just been run over by

1950
01:13:26,090 --> 01:13:24,239
UFO Cults right okay or like I've had

1951
01:13:27,830 --> 01:13:26,100
their minds ruined by these Cults right

1952
01:13:31,910 --> 01:13:27,840
or if you think of the most recent book

1953
01:13:36,229 --> 01:13:31,920
Trinity it's a story of two young men

1954
01:13:38,810 --> 01:13:36,239
young boys now old men who had their

1955
01:13:41,330 --> 01:13:38,820
lives fundamentally Changed by the

1956
01:13:43,310 --> 01:13:41,340
introduction of the atom bomb right and

1957
01:13:46,250 --> 01:13:43,320
then and it's the story of like all the

1958
01:13:48,649 --> 01:13:46,260
people in New Mexico who we've never

1959
01:13:51,709 --> 01:13:48,659
heard of right who had their lives in

1960
01:13:53,149 --> 01:13:51,719
some cases ruined by the atom bomb okay

1961
01:13:57,350 --> 01:13:53,159
and so

1962
01:13:58,970 --> 01:13:57,360
I the way I read valet is is like a

1963
01:14:01,430 --> 01:13:58,980
really high well not not necessarily the

1964
01:14:02,630 --> 01:14:01,440
search level is to say look

1965
01:14:05,030 --> 01:14:02,640
um

1966
01:14:06,770 --> 01:14:05,040
we have realized that we have done

1967
01:14:08,930 --> 01:14:06,780
things to ourselves with our technology

1968
01:14:10,970 --> 01:14:08,940
that we can't undo right we realize we

1969
01:14:12,830 --> 01:14:10,980
have the power to end the world now okay

1970
01:14:14,689 --> 01:14:12,840
we realize we have this like

1971
01:14:17,149 --> 01:14:14,699
transhumanist possibility where we might

1972
01:14:19,550 --> 01:14:17,159
just undermine Humanity itself do you

1973
01:14:21,470 --> 01:14:19,560
see what I mean like he he's he seems to

1974
01:14:24,590 --> 01:14:21,480
have a sense that Humanity like there

1975
01:14:28,130 --> 01:14:24,600
are a lot of like that what we're seeing

1976
01:14:29,990 --> 01:14:28,140
here is this like movement into a new

1977
01:14:32,390 --> 01:14:30,000
era of technology that is very

1978
01:14:35,030 --> 01:14:32,400
threatening to our very self-conceptions

1979
01:14:37,010 --> 01:14:35,040
do you see that okay and this is in

1980
01:14:38,810 --> 01:14:37,020
young too and it's at that exact moment

1981
01:14:40,250 --> 01:14:38,820
that the UFO thing starts to become very

1982
01:14:43,850 --> 01:14:40,260
very important to us

1983
01:14:46,310 --> 01:14:43,860
right okay and so I think like valet is

1984
01:14:48,830 --> 01:14:46,320
seeing here is like how we deal with the

1985
01:14:51,050 --> 01:14:48,840
UFO thing this like technological

1986
01:14:53,870 --> 01:14:51,060
metaphor uh for the Transcendence that's

1987
01:14:55,729 --> 01:14:53,880
always been there right really is how

1988
01:14:58,910 --> 01:14:55,739
we're gonna do how we're dealing with

1989
01:15:01,189 --> 01:14:58,920
like the pressure on us of that that the

1990
01:15:03,649 --> 01:15:01,199
technological error is providing all

1991
01:15:06,169 --> 01:15:03,659
right and he's not saying we should like

1992
01:15:08,630 --> 01:15:06,179
get rid of the technology right but he

1993
01:15:10,729 --> 01:15:08,640
is saying that we're we are in a crisis

1994
01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:10,739
of meaning in the wake of our technology

1995
01:15:14,030 --> 01:15:12,719
and he's worried about that and I think

1996
01:15:16,189 --> 01:15:14,040
that's exactly what high diggers under

1997
01:15:17,990 --> 01:15:16,199
that essay

1998
01:15:20,330 --> 01:15:18,000
um yeah I know that makes a lot of sense

1999
01:15:22,490 --> 01:15:20,340
I mean and I think I keep

2000
01:15:25,910 --> 01:15:22,500
I I think that idea of the crisis of

2001
01:15:28,610 --> 01:15:25,920
meaning is something that that keeps

2002
01:15:30,709 --> 01:15:28,620
coming back to me in my in my work and

2003
01:15:32,870 --> 01:15:30,719
in my research is that idea you know

2004
01:15:36,770 --> 01:15:32,880
that there's something not just

2005
01:15:38,450 --> 01:15:36,780
technology but science and our

2006
01:15:40,729 --> 01:15:38,460
you know the way that science is sort of

2007
01:15:43,850 --> 01:15:40,739
almost replaced religion in our society

2008
01:15:45,590 --> 01:15:43,860
in terms of the meaning making but that

2009
01:15:47,209 --> 01:15:45,600
science doesn't really do much really a

2010
01:15:49,550 --> 01:15:47,219
better job in many ways it does a worse

2011
01:15:51,050 --> 01:15:49,560
job at meaning making for us and that

2012
01:15:51,950 --> 01:15:51,060
we've kind of found ourselves in this

2013
01:15:54,350 --> 01:15:51,960
place

2014
01:15:57,470 --> 01:15:54,360
it's like the we're in this just

2015
01:15:59,450 --> 01:15:57,480
post-modern hellscape where you know I

2016
01:16:01,370 --> 01:15:59,460
can't trust my own subjective experience

2017
01:16:03,169 --> 01:16:01,380
I can't trust your subjective experience

2018
01:16:05,990 --> 01:16:03,179
I can't you know and there's there's

2019
01:16:07,669 --> 01:16:06,000
we've amputated these huge pieces of The

2020
01:16:10,370 --> 01:16:07,679
Human Experience I just decided that

2021
01:16:13,070 --> 01:16:10,380
like those things aren't real and it

2022
01:16:14,030 --> 01:16:13,080
puts us in a it makes it really hard

2023
01:16:15,410 --> 01:16:14,040
because like you were talking about

2024
01:16:17,990 --> 01:16:15,420
going outside of the cave and coming

2025
01:16:19,610 --> 01:16:18,000
back in you become unintelligible to the

2026
01:16:22,010 --> 01:16:19,620
people inside the cave but I think that

2027
01:16:23,810 --> 01:16:22,020
there's a way in which there's an

2028
01:16:26,930 --> 01:16:23,820
unintelligibility that is like permeated

2029
01:16:30,169 --> 01:16:26,940
the cave also right yeah exactly you

2030
01:16:33,890 --> 01:16:30,179
know think of it so I I I think this is

2031
01:16:36,229 --> 01:16:33,900
why in I mean I think partly why is

2032
01:16:39,350 --> 01:16:36,239
because valet is writing a story that's

2033
01:16:41,990 --> 01:16:39,360
about he and his co-author are spreading

2034
01:16:44,030 --> 01:16:42,000
a history of what happened around the

2035
01:16:45,470 --> 01:16:44,040
event of of the testing of the first

2036
01:16:46,189 --> 01:16:45,480
nuclear weapon okay but also I think

2037
01:16:48,169 --> 01:16:46,199
there's

2038
01:16:50,390 --> 01:16:48,179
bigger wise why people why are people

2039
01:16:53,330 --> 01:16:50,400
right too okay and I think think of it

2040
01:16:55,130 --> 01:16:53,340
like when the first when we when we blew

2041
01:16:57,649 --> 01:16:55,140
up our first atom bomb

2042
01:16:59,450 --> 01:16:57,659
we basically said

2043
01:17:00,950 --> 01:16:59,460
we can decide whether or not life

2044
01:17:03,709 --> 01:17:00,960
continues in this planet

2045
01:17:05,510 --> 01:17:03,719
like we can decide that okay

2046
01:17:07,550 --> 01:17:05,520
um and whether or not we actually choose

2047
01:17:09,530 --> 01:17:07,560
to end life in this planet or not or

2048
01:17:11,510 --> 01:17:09,540
someone chooses to right

2049
01:17:13,250 --> 01:17:11,520
we still have to live with the fact that

2050
01:17:16,550 --> 01:17:13,260
we have shown

2051
01:17:18,770 --> 01:17:16,560
that we're capable of this right and

2052
01:17:20,870 --> 01:17:18,780
that it seems like once you realize like

2053
01:17:23,570 --> 01:17:20,880
we could like undermine all of this

2054
01:17:26,330 --> 01:17:23,580
it seems like being is a lot flimsier

2055
01:17:29,270 --> 01:17:26,340
than we might have thought it was my

2056
01:17:31,250 --> 01:17:29,280
point right that yeah that like if we if

2057
01:17:32,810 --> 01:17:31,260
like we if we are powerful enough then

2058
01:17:35,390 --> 01:17:32,820
we could shape it to the point that we

2059
01:17:36,950 --> 01:17:35,400
could get rid of it right then it seems

2060
01:17:38,990 --> 01:17:36,960
like well then there's nothing here but

2061
01:17:40,370 --> 01:17:39,000
us and we have nothing to hope for we

2062
01:17:42,649 --> 01:17:40,380
have nothing to look to for guidance

2063
01:17:44,570 --> 01:17:42,659
right like that like the promise that

2064
01:17:47,570 --> 01:17:44,580
Prometheus made Humanity has come up

2065
01:17:48,649 --> 01:17:47,580
very very empty now do you see that and

2066
01:17:50,689 --> 01:17:48,659
it doesn't matter if it's nuclear

2067
01:17:52,729 --> 01:17:50,699
weapons or if it's transhumanism or if

2068
01:17:54,290 --> 01:17:52,739
it's you know complete psychological

2069
01:17:55,790 --> 01:17:54,300
control of ourselves or whatever right

2070
01:17:57,770 --> 01:17:55,800
like all these things that these

2071
01:18:00,770 --> 01:17:57,780
Technologies since the second world war

2072
01:18:03,350 --> 01:18:00,780
forward have started to show us it makes

2073
01:18:07,550 --> 01:18:03,360
being look very very flimsy is how I put

2074
01:18:10,490 --> 01:18:07,560
it right and and in it and this this

2075
01:18:11,990 --> 01:18:10,500
probably is just like fully realizing

2076
01:18:13,070 --> 01:18:12,000
like what Nietzsche calls the death of

2077
01:18:16,130 --> 01:18:13,080
God this is what you were talking about

2078
01:18:18,410 --> 01:18:16,140
right that it looks like it's just us

2079
01:18:19,910 --> 01:18:18,420
and what we do okay but then there's

2080
01:18:21,229 --> 01:18:19,920
nothing to look to now right there's

2081
01:18:23,510 --> 01:18:21,239
nothing to look to hope for there's

2082
01:18:25,130 --> 01:18:23,520
nothing to look for guidance for and

2083
01:18:25,970 --> 01:18:25,140
that that this is the crisis of meaning

2084
01:18:29,090 --> 01:18:25,980
right

2085
01:18:30,530 --> 01:18:29,100
and when I like did my my you know

2086
01:18:32,990 --> 01:18:30,540
obsessive read of all these books fine

2087
01:18:35,209 --> 01:18:33,000
valet I saw that on every page like he's

2088
01:18:37,850 --> 01:18:35,219
he's showing us people in the modern

2089
01:18:38,990 --> 01:18:37,860
meaning crisis right grasping for

2090
01:18:41,209 --> 01:18:39,000
something which leaves him really

2091
01:18:44,149 --> 01:18:41,219
vulnerable to like you know psyops and

2092
01:18:47,570 --> 01:18:44,159
all this stuff do you see that okay but

2093
01:18:49,370 --> 01:18:47,580
yet but yet for valet he thinks the UFO

2094
01:18:51,229 --> 01:18:49,380
phenomena is real he does not think it's

2095
01:18:54,169 --> 01:18:51,239
from here in like a conventional sense

2096
01:18:55,490 --> 01:18:54,179
of here right and so it seems like

2097
01:18:59,149 --> 01:18:55,500
there's a hope that there's something

2098
01:19:01,430 --> 01:18:59,159
that isn't just us do you see that yeah

2099
01:19:03,709 --> 01:19:01,440
right and that's why I get that sense of

2100
01:19:06,350 --> 01:19:03,719
him in him where the greatest danger is

2101
01:19:07,729 --> 01:19:06,360
in our technological nihilism that we're

2102
01:19:09,530 --> 01:19:07,739
in right now

2103
01:19:11,570 --> 01:19:09,540
there seems to be some kind of like

2104
01:19:14,450 --> 01:19:11,580
saving power out there that's showing up

2105
01:19:16,010 --> 01:19:14,460
at that very moment right and that that

2106
01:19:18,530 --> 01:19:16,020
to me is like this kind of really

2107
01:19:21,110 --> 01:19:18,540
beautiful irony that is chocolate right

2108
01:19:22,790 --> 01:19:21,120
well I hope they hurry up because we we

2109
01:19:24,950 --> 01:19:22,800
need some help the thing that scares me

2110
01:19:27,290 --> 01:19:24,960
is um

2111
01:19:29,510 --> 01:19:27,300
you know I've been a a writer I was a

2112
01:19:31,189 --> 01:19:29,520
marketer for years and you know hiring

2113
01:19:34,669 --> 01:19:31,199
copywriters and all that now you've got

2114
01:19:36,950 --> 01:19:34,679
chat GPT that can you know do a decent

2115
01:19:39,910 --> 01:19:36,960
job writing you a listicle uh it'll get

2116
01:19:42,709 --> 01:19:39,920
better and you know and we have ai art

2117
01:19:44,810 --> 01:19:42,719
my profession is losing its stuff over

2118
01:19:45,890 --> 01:19:44,820
chat GPT right because suddenly the

2119
01:19:49,070 --> 01:19:45,900
college essay is going to become

2120
01:19:50,810 --> 01:19:49,080
obsolete right exactly exactly and I

2121
01:19:53,330 --> 01:19:50,820
wonder you know I feel like there's a

2122
01:19:55,250 --> 01:19:53,340
lot of people like oh air is going is is

2123
01:19:56,750 --> 01:19:55,260
bad for artists I'm like this isn't just

2124
01:19:58,550 --> 01:19:56,760
bad for artists this is bad for all of

2125
01:20:02,090 --> 01:19:58,560
us I mean we're not that far out from an

2126
01:20:05,570 --> 01:20:02,100
AI assisted 3D printer you know I don't

2127
01:20:07,910 --> 01:20:05,580
there's we're like I don't know how far

2128
01:20:11,570 --> 01:20:07,920
out we are from like 80 or 90 of the

2129
01:20:13,669 --> 01:20:11,580
population being unemployable and if we

2130
01:20:15,649 --> 01:20:13,679
don't have those like if we don't have

2131
01:20:17,990 --> 01:20:15,659
that ability those like meaning making

2132
01:20:21,350 --> 01:20:18,000
paradigms and if we don't have a clear

2133
01:20:23,990 --> 01:20:21,360
idea of what a human

2134
01:20:26,090 --> 01:20:24,000
is good for and what a human and what

2135
01:20:27,169 --> 01:20:26,100
its value what a human's value is like I

2136
01:20:28,550 --> 01:20:27,179
worry about where we're headed with that

2137
01:20:29,810 --> 01:20:28,560
because if a bunch of people suddenly

2138
01:20:31,610 --> 01:20:29,820
become

2139
01:20:32,930 --> 01:20:31,620
you know first of all what do we do with

2140
01:20:34,370 --> 01:20:32,940
all those people who are unemployed if

2141
01:20:36,350 --> 01:20:34,380
we don't have an agreement about what

2142
01:20:37,790 --> 01:20:36,360
the value of a human life is and then

2143
01:20:40,250 --> 01:20:37,800
also

2144
01:20:41,630 --> 01:20:40,260
What Becomes of humanity like we were

2145
01:20:43,010 --> 01:20:41,640
talking about before there's something

2146
01:20:46,070 --> 01:20:43,020
about

2147
01:20:48,830 --> 01:20:46,080
being grounded in your body learning a

2148
01:20:50,570 --> 01:20:48,840
trade you know being rooted in this

2149
01:20:52,430 --> 01:20:50,580
world that helps you get to that next

2150
01:20:54,110 --> 01:20:52,440
level so what's even the point you know

2151
01:20:56,209 --> 01:20:54,120
if we don't people don't have trades

2152
01:20:58,130 --> 01:20:56,219
anymore I guess I just don't know what

2153
01:21:00,350 --> 01:20:58,140
becomes of us are we like the idiocracy

2154
01:21:03,890 --> 01:21:00,360
thing sitting in the toilet seat and

2155
01:21:05,570 --> 01:21:03,900
watching the television what no 100 100

2156
01:21:07,430 --> 01:21:05,580
actually

2157
01:21:09,830 --> 01:21:07,440
wrote a sub stack on this a couple weeks

2158
01:21:11,689 --> 01:21:09,840
ago uh on human obsolescence there's a

2159
01:21:15,410 --> 01:21:11,699
student of heidekers a guy named Gil uh

2160
01:21:17,030 --> 01:21:15,420
Anders who's like less known right uh if

2161
01:21:18,229 --> 01:21:17,040
one there's a book called prometheism

2162
01:21:20,510 --> 01:21:18,239
there's a translation of one of those

2163
01:21:22,010 --> 01:21:20,520
essays thought like the real like the

2164
01:21:25,189 --> 01:21:22,020
real problem with

2165
01:21:27,770 --> 01:21:25,199
the technological Paradigm run amok is

2166
01:21:29,630 --> 01:21:27,780
human obsolescence okay and and he's

2167
01:21:30,950 --> 01:21:29,640
very fast he's right in the 1950s about

2168
01:21:33,649 --> 01:21:30,960
how

2169
01:21:35,209 --> 01:21:33,659
suddenly now with like the the Space

2170
01:21:37,669 --> 01:21:35,219
Race

2171
01:21:43,490 --> 01:21:37,679
um he's right in the 1950s 1960s

2172
01:21:46,490 --> 01:21:43,500
we have to find a way to train humans

2173
01:21:47,990 --> 01:21:46,500
to use certain Machinery not build

2174
01:21:50,750 --> 01:21:48,000
machinery

2175
01:21:52,310 --> 01:21:50,760
to work around humans

2176
01:21:53,390 --> 01:21:52,320
so like think of like with the spacers

2177
01:21:56,870 --> 01:21:53,400
they had to go through all these trouble

2178
01:21:57,950 --> 01:21:56,880
to find people who could like work with

2179
01:21:59,270 --> 01:21:57,960
them what they thought was a

2180
01:22:00,770 --> 01:21:59,280
technological possibility for the

2181
01:22:04,310 --> 01:22:00,780
machine that was going to get us to the

2182
01:22:06,530 --> 01:22:04,320
Moon okay so now you've got men and

2183
01:22:07,910 --> 01:22:06,540
women being built for the sake of the

2184
01:22:10,010 --> 01:22:07,920
machine not

2185
01:22:11,689 --> 01:22:10,020
uh the machine being built for the sake

2186
01:22:15,350 --> 01:22:11,699
of the men and the women do you see that

2187
01:22:17,930 --> 01:22:15,360
right yeah the the 1964 film Fail-Safe

2188
01:22:20,450 --> 01:22:17,940
have you ever seen this no you're

2189
01:22:22,070 --> 01:22:20,460
interested in film uh Stanley lament's

2190
01:22:24,229 --> 01:22:22,080
director and it's about an accidental

2191
01:22:26,689 --> 01:22:24,239
you know nuclear war but the thing is

2192
01:22:28,430 --> 01:22:26,699
it's not really accidental it's that and

2193
01:22:29,810 --> 01:22:28,440
this is pre-i it's not because the the

2194
01:22:32,630 --> 01:22:29,820
computers are smarter than us it's just

2195
01:22:34,430 --> 01:22:32,640
that once we start operating

2196
01:22:36,530 --> 01:22:34,440
according to the logic of the machine

2197
01:22:38,510 --> 01:22:36,540
and it's up to us to conform to the

2198
01:22:40,490 --> 01:22:38,520
machine then we are not running things

2199
01:22:41,990 --> 01:22:40,500
anymore we are actually obsolete to the

2200
01:22:43,669 --> 01:22:42,000
process right

2201
01:22:45,470 --> 01:22:43,679
and it's it's interesting like in the

2202
01:22:48,050 --> 01:22:45,480
film the nuclear war is gonna happen

2203
01:22:49,970 --> 01:22:48,060
because it's gonna happen and that's

2204
01:22:52,010 --> 01:22:49,980
just the logic of the machine like did

2205
01:22:53,390 --> 01:22:52,020
you see that and there was there's very

2206
01:22:55,010 --> 01:22:53,400
little human decision making made

2207
01:22:57,050 --> 01:22:55,020
anymore right because it's all

2208
01:22:59,570 --> 01:22:57,060
programmed out that would by procedure

2209
01:23:02,590 --> 01:22:59,580
okay and I think you're right is like

2210
01:23:05,330 --> 01:23:02,600
the threat here is coming human

2211
01:23:07,130 --> 01:23:05,340
obsolescence it's not just like whether

2212
01:23:08,810 --> 01:23:07,140
we'll nuke ourselves right it's not just

2213
01:23:10,130 --> 01:23:08,820
whether you know we'll

2214
01:23:11,630 --> 01:23:10,140
you know we subject to all these sort of

2215
01:23:14,450 --> 01:23:11,640
apocalyptic calamities I mean that's

2216
01:23:16,430 --> 01:23:14,460
there okay but it's that

2217
01:23:19,550 --> 01:23:16,440
um I think there's evidence to think

2218
01:23:22,189 --> 01:23:19,560
that really we're not going to like run

2219
01:23:23,689 --> 01:23:22,199
out of jobs for humans to do okay

2220
01:23:26,570 --> 01:23:23,699
like we're all going to become those

2221
01:23:27,830 --> 01:23:26,580
supervisors of machines all right and we

2222
01:23:29,750 --> 01:23:27,840
will have very little to do with the

2223
01:23:32,390 --> 01:23:29,760
actual product productive activity that

2224
01:23:34,490 --> 01:23:32,400
goes on okay this was your point is so

2225
01:23:38,030 --> 01:23:34,500
then what happens to our self-conception

2226
01:23:40,370 --> 01:23:38,040
now like we are just here to operate to

2227
01:23:43,729 --> 01:23:40,380
observe what the machines do and consume

2228
01:23:46,070 --> 01:23:43,739
the products right yeah well I have no

2229
01:23:47,510 --> 01:23:46,080
sense of pride in this now I have no

2230
01:23:49,430 --> 01:23:47,520
sense of achieving this I have no sense

2231
01:23:51,950 --> 01:23:49,440
of bodily development I have no sense I

2232
01:23:54,770 --> 01:23:51,960
am just now reduced to a consumption

2233
01:23:57,649 --> 01:23:54,780
consumer entirely did you see that yeah

2234
01:24:00,110 --> 01:23:57,659
and what is that that is a kind of

2235
01:24:02,570 --> 01:24:00,120
Apocalypse that is an undermining of

2236
01:24:05,810 --> 01:24:02,580
humanity as we've known it for our many

2237
01:24:07,250 --> 01:24:05,820
Millennia of History yeah it's like you

2238
01:24:08,630 --> 01:24:07,260
work all day in the potato chip factory

2239
01:24:10,910 --> 01:24:08,640
so you can go home and eat potato chips

2240
01:24:13,010 --> 01:24:10,920
exactly yeah but now it's going to be is

2241
01:24:15,649 --> 01:24:13,020
you're going to spend your day

2242
01:24:18,290 --> 01:24:15,659
just double checking that the machines

2243
01:24:20,510 --> 01:24:18,300
at the potato chip factory are working

2244
01:24:21,770 --> 01:24:20,520
right yeah but you can go home and

2245
01:24:23,810 --> 01:24:21,780
consume those potato chips like you

2246
01:24:25,010 --> 01:24:23,820
can't even say I made the chips I just

2247
01:24:27,709 --> 01:24:25,020
sort of made sure it didn't go off the

2248
01:24:29,510 --> 01:24:27,719
rails right right right and I think

2249
01:24:32,090 --> 01:24:29,520
that's that's to change the nature of

2250
01:24:34,430 --> 01:24:32,100
human work very very radically okay

2251
01:24:36,770 --> 01:24:34,440
which and I think that's the change

2252
01:24:37,850 --> 01:24:36,780
human nature very radically or like to

2253
01:24:41,390 --> 01:24:37,860
put human nature in a situation it

2254
01:24:42,770 --> 01:24:41,400
wasn't intended for right yeah right I

2255
01:24:45,470 --> 01:24:42,780
think that's so important and I really

2256
01:24:46,910 --> 01:24:45,480
did enjoy your um class on that I'll put

2257
01:24:48,770 --> 01:24:46,920
the link in the episode description for

2258
01:24:50,570 --> 01:24:48,780
anybody who wants to take that it's

2259
01:24:53,450 --> 01:24:50,580
phenomenal I really think the question

2260
01:24:55,550 --> 01:24:53,460
concerning technology it's so

2261
01:24:58,010 --> 01:24:55,560
challenging and the the ideas are not

2262
01:25:00,410 --> 01:24:58,020
easy but the more I go back to it and

2263
01:25:02,209 --> 01:25:00,420
the more I the better and better I

2264
01:25:03,770 --> 01:25:02,219
understand it the more it helps me

2265
01:25:06,530 --> 01:25:03,780
understand what's happening around me

2266
01:25:08,709 --> 01:25:06,540
yeah that is a hard essay and that

2267
01:25:12,290 --> 01:25:08,719
you're reading that on your own

2268
01:25:14,990 --> 01:25:12,300
right uh I actually think I think Diane

2269
01:25:16,189 --> 01:25:15,000
might mention this but there's a uh a

2270
01:25:17,689 --> 01:25:16,199
short book it's not actually a book by

2271
01:25:19,850 --> 01:25:17,699
harder it's just two essays it's

2272
01:25:21,649 --> 01:25:19,860
actually two lectures he gave so there's

2273
01:25:22,189 --> 01:25:21,659
one it's it's called

2274
01:25:25,010 --> 01:25:22,199
um

2275
01:25:28,610 --> 01:25:25,020
discourse on thinking is the name of the

2276
01:25:29,870 --> 01:25:28,620
book discourse on thinking and the first

2277
01:25:33,410 --> 01:25:29,880
essay in that is called the memorial

2278
01:25:34,669 --> 01:25:33,420
address okay and

2279
01:25:35,870 --> 01:25:34,679
um and that's actually where he brings

2280
01:25:37,729 --> 01:25:35,880
up meditative thinking and the things

2281
01:25:40,189 --> 01:25:37,739
that Diana mentions the memorial address

2282
01:25:44,229 --> 01:25:40,199
is really like the question concerning

2283
01:25:47,630 --> 01:25:44,239
technology the reader friendly version

2284
01:25:50,090 --> 01:25:47,640
yeah so listeners who want wanted like a

2285
01:25:52,630 --> 01:25:50,100
kind of like like a like a nice

2286
01:25:55,130 --> 01:25:52,640
friendly Heidegger right yeah

2287
01:25:58,070 --> 01:25:55,140
heidecker's rough yeah I went back to

2288
01:26:00,890 --> 01:25:58,080
being in time recently and it's a it is

2289
01:26:02,770 --> 01:26:00,900
a slog and a half but it's a very very

2290
01:26:04,610 --> 01:26:02,780
hard book yeah

2291
01:26:05,750 --> 01:26:04,620
definitely all right so is there

2292
01:26:07,910 --> 01:26:05,760
anything else you want to say about the

2293
01:26:09,410 --> 01:26:07,920
question concerning technology no no and

2294
01:26:11,510 --> 01:26:09,420
once again I'll leave it I'll leave it

2295
01:26:13,310 --> 01:26:11,520
to the listener to pursue that course

2296
01:26:14,330 --> 01:26:13,320
and they can they could harass me on

2297
01:26:18,110 --> 01:26:14,340
Twitter whatever if they have questions

2298
01:26:20,510 --> 01:26:18,120
about that so okay wonderful I love that

2299
01:26:25,010 --> 01:26:20,520
um cool well and I also I'd love to turn

2300
01:26:27,350 --> 01:26:25,020
to an uh an article of yours about

2301
01:26:30,709 --> 01:26:27,360
um it was entitled Aristotle myth and

2302
01:26:31,970 --> 01:26:30,719
extraterrestrial intelligences yeah yeah

2303
01:26:33,410 --> 01:26:31,980
um yeah do you want to sort of like walk

2304
01:26:35,570 --> 01:26:33,420
us through that maybe like sure I think

2305
01:26:37,910 --> 01:26:35,580
Aristotle's natural theology I just saw

2306
01:26:40,550 --> 01:26:37,920
such parallels are really helpful okay

2307
01:26:42,709 --> 01:26:40,560
so um yeah okay so you know I'm not I

2308
01:26:45,229 --> 01:26:42,719
want to be careful I'm not coming out to

2309
01:26:46,310 --> 01:26:45,239
like defend the argument here I mean I

2310
01:26:48,410 --> 01:26:46,320
think I think there's much to be said

2311
01:26:50,570 --> 01:26:48,420
for but to defend it in any responsible

2312
01:26:52,310 --> 01:26:50,580
way we'll go far beyond what we can do

2313
01:26:56,149 --> 01:26:52,320
in this conversation right

2314
01:26:57,770 --> 01:26:56,159
but so Aristotle gives an argument for

2315
01:26:59,510 --> 01:26:57,780
God's existence but I want to be careful

2316
01:27:02,090 --> 01:26:59,520
about even saying that because that like

2317
01:27:04,550 --> 01:27:02,100
when we hear that we we really tend to

2318
01:27:08,629 --> 01:27:04,560
Miss what he's up to okay

2319
01:27:10,970 --> 01:27:08,639
so but Aristotle has a view that if

2320
01:27:13,370 --> 01:27:10,980
something undergoes a certain kind of

2321
01:27:15,649 --> 01:27:13,380
change okay that has to be ultimately

2322
01:27:18,129 --> 01:27:15,659
accounted for but the thing that

2323
01:27:21,050 --> 01:27:18,139
accounts for that change

2324
01:27:22,689 --> 01:27:21,060
cannot be subject to that same change

2325
01:27:25,189 --> 01:27:22,699
otherwise the question is left

2326
01:27:27,229 --> 01:27:25,199
unexplained right right so if you ask

2327
01:27:29,570 --> 01:27:27,239
like why is there freezing change going

2328
01:27:30,709 --> 01:27:29,580
on you can't answer it with some higher

2329
01:27:32,030 --> 01:27:30,719
level freezing you haven't really

2330
01:27:34,010 --> 01:27:32,040
answered the question

2331
01:27:35,629 --> 01:27:34,020
okay

2332
01:27:37,729 --> 01:27:35,639
um and so

2333
01:27:39,470 --> 01:27:37,739
in in his philosophy of nature he's

2334
01:27:41,270 --> 01:27:39,480
worried about like the kind of motion or

2335
01:27:43,430 --> 01:27:41,280
change that goes on on the earth okay

2336
01:27:45,110 --> 01:27:43,440
but then in his metaphysics he says okay

2337
01:27:47,990 --> 01:27:45,120
that's fine I gave you an account of

2338
01:27:51,169 --> 01:27:48,000
that but now but why is that change

2339
01:27:53,330 --> 01:27:51,179
going on well he says it must be because

2340
01:27:55,850 --> 01:27:53,340
of something that is not subject to that

2341
01:27:57,410 --> 01:27:55,860
change okay and you know now it's going

2342
01:27:59,030 --> 01:27:57,420
to mix some empirical stuff but like the

2343
01:28:01,070 --> 01:27:59,040
Greeks knew well you've got these

2344
01:28:04,310 --> 01:28:01,080
celestial bodies right moving around up

2345
01:28:06,530 --> 01:28:04,320
there okay and he says well it must be

2346
01:28:08,209 --> 01:28:06,540
because like say I forget what the order

2347
01:28:11,209 --> 01:28:08,219
is he puts it out but like say because

2348
01:28:12,830 --> 01:28:11,219
the Moon is responsible for like the

2349
01:28:14,570 --> 01:28:12,840
explanation of the change that goes on

2350
01:28:16,490 --> 01:28:14,580
in the earth okay so why is there change

2351
01:28:19,189 --> 01:28:16,500
happening on the earth because the Moon

2352
01:28:21,410 --> 01:28:19,199
is doing what the moon does okay but it

2353
01:28:24,890 --> 01:28:21,420
must be a different kind of change so

2354
01:28:26,810 --> 01:28:24,900
he's saying the moon must be made out of

2355
01:28:29,570 --> 01:28:26,820
different stuff from the earth right

2356
01:28:32,510 --> 01:28:29,580
okay it's more ethereal and less earthy

2357
01:28:34,610 --> 01:28:32,520
okay uh because it's accounting for this

2358
01:28:38,149 --> 01:28:34,620
change right but then he notes well wait

2359
01:28:39,530 --> 01:28:38,159
the the Moon is changing then right so

2360
01:28:41,750 --> 01:28:39,540
there must be something higher level

2361
01:28:43,310 --> 01:28:41,760
than it that accounts for its change say

2362
01:28:45,350 --> 01:28:43,320
Mercury the planet Mercury or whatever

2363
01:28:47,330 --> 01:28:45,360
right and so he goes through and he says

2364
01:28:51,110 --> 01:28:47,340
well so look it looks like we've got a

2365
01:28:53,209 --> 01:28:51,120
hierarchy Universe of Changers right but

2366
01:28:55,669 --> 01:28:53,219
as we go up the hierarchy we're getting

2367
01:28:57,890 --> 01:28:55,679
less material and more General right

2368
01:28:59,570 --> 01:28:57,900
rather than earthy okay

2369
01:29:01,850 --> 01:28:59,580
another thing to note about this is on

2370
01:29:03,350 --> 01:29:01,860
Aristotle's view is let's say if the

2371
01:29:05,270 --> 01:29:03,360
moon is going to explain the change on

2372
01:29:06,590 --> 01:29:05,280
Earth but not engage in earth type

2373
01:29:08,990 --> 01:29:06,600
changes

2374
01:29:11,629 --> 01:29:09,000
it can't like reach down to the Earth

2375
01:29:14,330 --> 01:29:11,639
and dirty itself with it it must be that

2376
01:29:15,890 --> 01:29:14,340
the Earth stuff looks up to it

2377
01:29:17,629 --> 01:29:15,900
right so

2378
01:29:19,070 --> 01:29:17,639
so this goes to aerosol is kind of

2379
01:29:21,050 --> 01:29:19,080
almost like pan psychic views like

2380
01:29:23,629 --> 01:29:21,060
everything in nature

2381
01:29:25,850 --> 01:29:23,639
kind of desires or intends to get after

2382
01:29:29,390 --> 01:29:25,860
the thing above it okay so the Earth

2383
01:29:30,530 --> 01:29:29,400
stuff is quasi-consciously pursuing the

2384
01:29:34,669 --> 01:29:30,540
moon stuff

2385
01:29:36,649 --> 01:29:34,679
quasi-consciously pursuing the Mercury

2386
01:29:38,270 --> 01:29:36,659
stuff okay and so on and so forth so

2387
01:29:40,729 --> 01:29:38,280
keep in mind that so aerosol arrives at

2388
01:29:43,010 --> 01:29:40,739
is he thinks the celestial bodies are

2389
01:29:45,590 --> 01:29:43,020
are conscious they're smart in some way

2390
01:29:47,330 --> 01:29:45,600
okay but he says that can't go on

2391
01:29:49,790 --> 01:29:47,340
forever so there's got to be an absolute

2392
01:29:51,649 --> 01:29:49,800
overall like Dome around the whole thing

2393
01:29:53,689 --> 01:29:51,659
and everything's pursuing that dome but

2394
01:29:55,790 --> 01:29:53,699
he says but wait that Dome would then be

2395
01:29:57,649 --> 01:29:55,800
in motion so he says there must be

2396
01:30:00,169 --> 01:29:57,659
something outside of the whole thing

2397
01:30:03,590 --> 01:30:00,179
that is not in motion that everything is

2398
01:30:05,990 --> 01:30:03,600
pursuing and he calls that the God okay

2399
01:30:08,149 --> 01:30:06,000
okay be that as man I mean the the point

2400
01:30:10,070 --> 01:30:08,159
I want to make here is that Aristotle

2401
01:30:12,290 --> 01:30:10,080
like Plato too if you read Plato's style

2402
01:30:15,050 --> 01:30:12,300
of 10 minutes you get a similar story

2403
01:30:18,110 --> 01:30:15,060
has a view of a universe that is full of

2404
01:30:19,610 --> 01:30:18,120
conscious beings okay some of which are

2405
01:30:21,890 --> 01:30:19,620
Celestial some of which are

2406
01:30:23,750 --> 01:30:21,900
intelligently Celestial okay and they

2407
01:30:25,610 --> 01:30:23,760
have a role to play in the explanation

2408
01:30:26,870 --> 01:30:25,620
of things going on in Earth okay

2409
01:30:28,250 --> 01:30:26,880
so one like if you're asking is

2410
01:30:31,129 --> 01:30:28,260
Aristotle believe in extraterrestrials

2411
01:30:32,629 --> 01:30:31,139
yes he does okay all right all right but

2412
01:30:34,610 --> 01:30:32,639
that that's not like the really

2413
01:30:38,090 --> 01:30:34,620
interesting thing to me is after

2414
01:30:40,610 --> 01:30:38,100
Aristotle gives his natural theology he

2415
01:30:42,229 --> 01:30:40,620
has this very interesting uh set of

2416
01:30:43,070 --> 01:30:42,239
remarks he makes that I quote in this

2417
01:30:45,110 --> 01:30:43,080
article

2418
01:30:46,850 --> 01:30:45,120
That You Don't See common on very often

2419
01:30:50,510 --> 01:30:46,860
where he says okay

2420
01:30:52,010 --> 01:30:50,520
this shows that my ancient ancestors

2421
01:30:55,729 --> 01:30:52,020
were actually right about something

2422
01:30:58,070 --> 01:30:55,739
namely that the universe is surrounded

2423
01:31:01,370 --> 01:30:58,080
by Divinity right and the skies are full

2424
01:31:03,830 --> 01:31:01,380
of gods of A Sort okay and then he says

2425
01:31:05,750 --> 01:31:03,840
but that original Insight that our

2426
01:31:07,850 --> 01:31:05,760
ancestors had was

2427
01:31:10,729 --> 01:31:07,860
kind of co-opted into like popular

2428
01:31:12,169 --> 01:31:10,739
religion and used to make caves is to

2429
01:31:14,870 --> 01:31:12,179
use it what we said earlier they make

2430
01:31:16,610 --> 01:31:14,880
manipulative caves

2431
01:31:18,169 --> 01:31:16,620
um but now with my scientific work

2432
01:31:20,270 --> 01:31:18,179
because he would think of himself really

2433
01:31:22,370 --> 01:31:20,280
as a kind of physicist here because of

2434
01:31:25,790 --> 01:31:22,380
my scientific work I've shown that the

2435
01:31:28,070 --> 01:31:25,800
original ER myths are true there's a

2436
01:31:30,470 --> 01:31:28,080
kind of insight these people had okay

2437
01:31:32,330 --> 01:31:30,480
so I find that absolutely fascinating

2438
01:31:34,550 --> 01:31:32,340
especially in light of work by like

2439
01:31:36,649 --> 01:31:34,560
Jeffrey recently okay you know

2440
01:31:39,050 --> 01:31:36,659
where what what is trying to do

2441
01:31:41,149 --> 01:31:39,060
is to like break down this distinction

2442
01:31:43,430 --> 01:31:41,159
between the natural and the Supernatural

2443
01:31:46,430 --> 01:31:43,440
and they get us to say that nature is

2444
01:31:48,830 --> 01:31:46,440
actually itself super right and I think

2445
01:31:50,149 --> 01:31:48,840
that's exactly how Aristotle and really

2446
01:31:52,370 --> 01:31:50,159
Plato and like the Greeks in general

2447
01:31:54,770 --> 01:31:52,380
thought of it is that it's not that

2448
01:31:56,570 --> 01:31:54,780
there's like interventions into the

2449
01:31:58,669 --> 01:31:56,580
universe from without is it the universe

2450
01:32:01,129 --> 01:31:58,679
itself is full

2451
01:32:03,470 --> 01:32:01,139
of things that go beyond our ordinary

2452
01:32:05,870 --> 01:32:03,480
consensus reality and actually good

2453
01:32:09,169 --> 01:32:05,880
science is going to reveal that to us

2454
01:32:10,610 --> 01:32:09,179
right and when I said I find very

2455
01:32:12,350 --> 01:32:10,620
interested about this is like Aristotle

2456
01:32:15,310 --> 01:32:12,360
seems to be saying that our very very

2457
01:32:18,290 --> 01:32:15,320
ancient ancestors had this like spooky

2458
01:32:19,910 --> 01:32:18,300
revelatory insight into this before they

2459
01:32:22,370 --> 01:32:19,920
had the scientific means to get it right

2460
01:32:25,729 --> 01:32:22,380
so for him behind all of our religious

2461
01:32:28,129 --> 01:32:25,739
myths there is this contact Insight

2462
01:32:30,050 --> 01:32:28,139
Revelation that's kind of baked into the

2463
01:32:31,370 --> 01:32:30,060
human cake that they're that we're

2464
01:32:33,830 --> 01:32:31,380
surrounded by Divinity and the skies are

2465
01:32:35,390 --> 01:32:33,840
full of Gods like what we're seeing with

2466
01:32:37,610 --> 01:32:35,400
the phenomena like we feel like it's

2467
01:32:40,370 --> 01:32:37,620
like new AG right and it's like Cutting

2468
01:32:43,970 --> 01:32:40,380
Edge I think it's more like the

2469
01:32:47,149 --> 01:32:43,980
structure of real human experience right

2470
01:32:49,070 --> 01:32:47,159
that we can see enlightened philosophers

2471
01:32:51,470 --> 01:32:49,080
that talking about going back to the

2472
01:32:53,270 --> 01:32:51,480
Ancients do you see my point right yeah

2473
01:32:54,770 --> 01:32:53,280
to me that's what that's the value of

2474
01:32:55,970 --> 01:32:54,780
all that yeah I mean I think there are

2475
01:32:58,430 --> 01:32:55,980
two things that I really love about it

2476
01:33:00,530 --> 01:32:58,440
in particular the first is

2477
01:33:02,050 --> 01:33:00,540
you know he had that he talks about

2478
01:33:05,570 --> 01:33:02,060
those sort of like

2479
01:33:07,669 --> 01:33:05,580
interlocking hierarchies yeah and that

2480
01:33:08,750 --> 01:33:07,679
would sort of make sense within you know

2481
01:33:10,970 --> 01:33:08,760
a lot of the conversations we've been

2482
01:33:12,169 --> 01:33:10,980
having over the last couple episodes and

2483
01:33:13,910 --> 01:33:12,179
what we were talking about before about

2484
01:33:17,390 --> 01:33:13,920
that there's something there's something

2485
01:33:19,430 --> 01:33:17,400
that draws us up to that next yeah we're

2486
01:33:20,890 --> 01:33:19,440
being told we're being pulled up right

2487
01:33:22,850 --> 01:33:20,900
yes

2488
01:33:25,010 --> 01:33:22,860
right being pulled out of their cave

2489
01:33:27,169 --> 01:33:25,020
right and so I think it kind of gives us

2490
01:33:29,810 --> 01:33:27,179
sort of a model for how that might

2491
01:33:33,410 --> 01:33:29,820
happen but I also I mean I just think

2492
01:33:36,470 --> 01:33:33,420
the idea of even just the idea that a

2493
01:33:38,570 --> 01:33:36,480
planet is a conscious being I think is a

2494
01:33:40,010 --> 01:33:38,580
really important thought exercise

2495
01:33:41,629 --> 01:33:40,020
especially in the contest of what we've

2496
01:33:45,050 --> 01:33:41,639
been talking about right because we

2497
01:33:48,890 --> 01:33:45,060
because now we have the ability to

2498
01:33:50,510 --> 01:33:48,900
scan the Clouds Of Jupiter and say more

2499
01:33:52,910 --> 01:33:50,520
or less what those clouds are made out

2500
01:33:54,290 --> 01:33:52,920
of and we create these very like

2501
01:33:55,610 --> 01:33:54,300
scientific models or you think about

2502
01:33:57,410 --> 01:33:55,620
that you know we've all seen that

2503
01:33:58,850 --> 01:33:57,420
picture of the earth cut in half or the

2504
01:34:00,590 --> 01:33:58,860
quarter removed so you can see what the

2505
01:34:04,129 --> 01:34:00,600
inside looks like and so we have this

2506
01:34:05,870 --> 01:34:04,139
like scientific idea of what a planet is

2507
01:34:07,430 --> 01:34:05,880
and it's rocks and it's water and its

2508
01:34:09,050 --> 01:34:07,440
chemicals and it's you know it's all of

2509
01:34:10,910 --> 01:34:09,060
these different things it's whether or

2510
01:34:13,790 --> 01:34:10,920
not you know it's got an atmosphere but

2511
01:34:15,530 --> 01:34:13,800
we but to think of it as a full but then

2512
01:34:19,189 --> 01:34:15,540
because of that we don't see the full

2513
01:34:22,310 --> 01:34:19,199
being of the planet right and ask like

2514
01:34:25,010 --> 01:34:22,320
what is this what is this thing what is

2515
01:34:27,709 --> 01:34:25,020
it not what is it made out of but like

2516
01:34:29,209 --> 01:34:27,719
what is it what is it yeah and so you're

2517
01:34:30,590 --> 01:34:29,219
really you're going to Aristotelian

2518
01:34:34,390 --> 01:34:30,600
there hardcore right because like

2519
01:34:37,189 --> 01:34:34,400
Airsoft says well well not right

2520
01:34:38,689 --> 01:34:37,199
I did my homework yeah well done well

2521
01:34:39,950 --> 01:34:38,699
done I know professors want nothing more

2522
01:34:41,870 --> 01:34:39,960
than just for someone to do the reading

2523
01:34:43,270 --> 01:34:41,880
so yeah just we just want somebody to

2524
01:34:45,770 --> 01:34:43,280
care really

2525
01:34:48,830 --> 01:34:45,780
right it's like someone just don't go to

2526
01:34:50,390 --> 01:34:48,840
sleep and we'll love you okay so but um

2527
01:34:52,189 --> 01:34:50,400
no because like aerosol is like this is

2528
01:34:55,310 --> 01:34:52,199
I think one of our owners insights from

2529
01:34:56,570 --> 01:34:55,320
Arizona too is look there's more than

2530
01:34:58,610 --> 01:34:56,580
one question we can ask about something

2531
01:35:01,430 --> 01:34:58,620
there's more to ask about it than just

2532
01:35:03,110 --> 01:35:01,440
what is it made out of right and when we

2533
01:35:04,910 --> 01:35:03,120
ask why is it doing what it's doing yeah

2534
01:35:07,310 --> 01:35:04,920
part of the answer will be like because

2535
01:35:09,110 --> 01:35:07,320
it's been bumped into certain things and

2536
01:35:10,790 --> 01:35:09,120
there are laws of bumping in that

2537
01:35:13,850 --> 01:35:10,800
determine what's going to come out but

2538
01:35:15,770 --> 01:35:13,860
also we can ask what's it for right okay

2539
01:35:17,870 --> 01:35:15,780
you know what is it in its in its very

2540
01:35:19,430 --> 01:35:17,880
being or definition if it has one and I

2541
01:35:21,050 --> 01:35:19,440
think you're right like we're so used to

2542
01:35:23,030 --> 01:35:21,060
like looking at a planet in terms of the

2543
01:35:25,070 --> 01:35:23,040
Rockets made out of but maybe there's

2544
01:35:26,570 --> 01:35:25,080
like deeper questions to ask like what's

2545
01:35:28,070 --> 01:35:26,580
it for and

2546
01:35:29,810 --> 01:35:28,080
and I um

2547
01:35:32,450 --> 01:35:29,820
I mean this is certainly not a consensus

2548
01:35:34,129 --> 01:35:32,460
view but I mean there are serious

2549
01:35:36,470 --> 01:35:34,139
scientists

2550
01:35:39,709 --> 01:35:36,480
um serious philosophers right not just

2551
01:35:41,810 --> 01:35:39,719
Jokers like me right uh you know who are

2552
01:35:43,010 --> 01:35:41,820
taking seriously like you know the idea

2553
01:35:44,990 --> 01:35:43,020
that you know

2554
01:35:47,570 --> 01:35:45,000
plants are in some sense conscious right

2555
01:35:49,189 --> 01:35:47,580
and there was a article like plants

2556
01:35:50,810 --> 01:35:49,199
right and there was an article published

2557
01:35:53,390 --> 01:35:50,820
in the journal for Consciousness Studies

2558
01:35:55,370 --> 01:35:53,400
by Rupert sheldrake

2559
01:35:57,410 --> 01:35:55,380
um relatively like in the last year or

2560
01:35:59,810 --> 01:35:57,420
two where he I mean this is one of the

2561
01:36:02,030 --> 01:35:59,820
most important like philosophy of mine

2562
01:36:03,290 --> 01:36:02,040
cognitive science journals out there and

2563
01:36:05,689 --> 01:36:03,300
he he got a paper published

2564
01:36:08,410 --> 01:36:05,699
peer-reviewed arguing that the sun is

2565
01:36:11,390 --> 01:36:08,420
conscious right yeah

2566
01:36:14,030 --> 01:36:11,400
it's a fabulous paper and he makes a

2567
01:36:15,530 --> 01:36:14,040
pretty darn good case that the sun is

2568
01:36:16,970 --> 01:36:15,540
conscious and like this is a Vindication

2569
01:36:19,070 --> 01:36:16,980
of Aristotle's conception of the

2570
01:36:20,930 --> 01:36:19,080
Universe I mean Aristotle is wrong in

2571
01:36:22,729 --> 01:36:20,940
like what order the planets lie out and

2572
01:36:24,169 --> 01:36:22,739
if there's rings and stuff like that but

2573
01:36:26,450 --> 01:36:24,179
it looks like the fundamental

2574
01:36:28,010 --> 01:36:26,460
metaphysical Insight that what maybe is

2575
01:36:30,890 --> 01:36:28,020
driving the whole thing is conscious

2576
01:36:32,689 --> 01:36:30,900
desire not just push from behind

2577
01:36:35,030 --> 01:36:32,699
sheldrake I think makes a case that

2578
01:36:37,970 --> 01:36:35,040
that's not scientifically just beyond

2579
01:36:41,510 --> 01:36:37,980
the pale anymore right right it makes me

2580
01:36:43,850 --> 01:36:41,520
wonder if the microscopic mites that

2581
01:36:45,830 --> 01:36:43,860
live in my eyebrows spend their whole

2582
01:36:49,209 --> 01:36:45,840
life in the forest of my eyebrows like

2583
01:36:52,129 --> 01:36:49,219
if they do they wonder if I'm conscious

2584
01:36:53,990 --> 01:36:52,139
we wonder if this Forest is just you

2585
01:36:56,350 --> 01:36:54,000
know like hair on the head of a greater

2586
01:36:59,110 --> 01:36:56,360
being right right

2587
01:37:01,970 --> 01:36:59,120
and they're right about that yeah

2588
01:37:03,590 --> 01:37:01,980
right but I I think it's become

2589
01:37:05,450 --> 01:37:03,600
important to me and like my teaching and

2590
01:37:06,649 --> 01:37:05,460
just conversation like this is they get

2591
01:37:08,930 --> 01:37:06,659
people I had a student the other day

2592
01:37:11,450 --> 01:37:08,940
sort of double back on myself we had

2593
01:37:14,930 --> 01:37:11,460
just we were reading Plato's Timaeus uh

2594
01:37:17,149 --> 01:37:14,940
in class which is a crazy spooky

2595
01:37:18,770 --> 01:37:17,159
dialogue and

2596
01:37:20,810 --> 01:37:18,780
um the students said well gosh this

2597
01:37:23,090 --> 01:37:20,820
count sounds so new age and I said well

2598
01:37:25,729 --> 01:37:23,100
it's because new age is actually really

2599
01:37:27,709 --> 01:37:25,739
old right like a lot of the stuff that

2600
01:37:29,209 --> 01:37:27,719
we see is spooky woo and stuff like that

2601
01:37:30,830 --> 01:37:29,219
was actually

2602
01:37:33,169 --> 01:37:30,840
where the serious views of like the

2603
01:37:34,850 --> 01:37:33,179
ancient Greeks and I'm not experts in

2604
01:37:37,550 --> 01:37:34,860
other Traditions but I suspect you'll

2605
01:37:39,410 --> 01:37:37,560
find the same thing in in ancient Hindu

2606
01:37:41,810 --> 01:37:39,420
philosophy they had philosophers Ancient

2607
01:37:43,430 --> 01:37:41,820
Ancient you know Pacific Rim philosophy

2608
01:37:45,410 --> 01:37:43,440
they had philosophers like it's coming

2609
01:37:48,050 --> 01:37:45,420
in very similar conclusions right

2610
01:37:50,629 --> 01:37:48,060
and I think those conclusions you know

2611
01:37:53,209 --> 01:37:50,639
are increasingly sustainable in light of

2612
01:37:56,930 --> 01:37:53,219
like contemporary thought yeah

2613
01:37:59,270 --> 01:37:56,940
yeah it's so interesting I'm I love that

2614
01:38:00,890 --> 01:37:59,280
and so when we when we start talking

2615
01:38:02,629 --> 01:38:00,900
that we're gonna we're we're gonna like

2616
01:38:05,390 --> 01:38:02,639
look into UFOs and we're going to look

2617
01:38:07,189 --> 01:38:05,400
into you know ghosts or look into like

2618
01:38:08,930 --> 01:38:07,199
all sorts of Psy paranormal phenomena

2619
01:38:10,370 --> 01:38:08,940
right

2620
01:38:11,990 --> 01:38:10,380
um hey if we're in a universe that's

2621
01:38:14,149 --> 01:38:12,000
suffused with Consciousness like the

2622
01:38:15,350 --> 01:38:14,159
Ancients thought that doesn't seem to be

2623
01:38:19,070 --> 01:38:15,360
so

2624
01:38:21,770 --> 01:38:19,080
crazy right if if indeed you know uh

2625
01:38:23,750 --> 01:38:21,780
there is some kind of ultimate Insight

2626
01:38:26,149 --> 01:38:23,760
that our very very ancient ancestors had

2627
01:38:28,850 --> 01:38:26,159
through some non-scientific means then

2628
01:38:29,810 --> 01:38:28,860
that's significant right right and I

2629
01:38:33,410 --> 01:38:29,820
think

2630
01:38:35,870 --> 01:38:33,420
so cool about the the breakout of the

2631
01:38:38,330 --> 01:38:35,880
UFO thing is it's making respectable

2632
01:38:40,250 --> 01:38:38,340
to take seriously what we think are

2633
01:38:46,430 --> 01:38:40,260
weird but are actually very old ideas

2634
01:38:50,870 --> 01:38:48,470
you are kind enough to share with me an

2635
01:38:52,610 --> 01:38:50,880
article that you're in the process of

2636
01:38:53,870 --> 01:38:52,620
finishing up

2637
01:38:55,850 --> 01:38:53,880
um of course who needs editing but yeah

2638
01:38:57,350 --> 01:38:55,860
yeah that was great and I you know I

2639
01:38:58,490 --> 01:38:57,360
loved it I was so grateful you sent it

2640
01:39:01,070 --> 01:38:58,500
to me because I think it's so perfect

2641
01:39:03,709 --> 01:39:01,080
and so what I'm excited about it makes

2642
01:39:05,149 --> 01:39:03,719
me think of the the tick metaphor that

2643
01:39:07,729 --> 01:39:05,159
you used

2644
01:39:09,229 --> 01:39:07,739
um because it was and I'll let you tell

2645
01:39:11,030 --> 01:39:09,239
it but what I'm what I'm excited so

2646
01:39:12,890 --> 01:39:11,040
excited about is that you know I mean

2647
01:39:14,209 --> 01:39:12,900
you're familiar with my podcast I spent

2648
01:39:15,530 --> 01:39:14,219
like the whole first part of the podcast

2649
01:39:17,090 --> 01:39:15,540
kind of laying out all the different

2650
01:39:19,550 --> 01:39:17,100
hypotheses and I think that what you're

2651
01:39:21,649 --> 01:39:19,560
putting out there is a hypothesis that I

2652
01:39:23,450 --> 01:39:21,659
personally haven't heard at least not in

2653
01:39:25,550 --> 01:39:23,460
this way before so I'm I'm really

2654
01:39:27,410 --> 01:39:25,560
excited for you to share that excellent

2655
01:39:29,330 --> 01:39:27,420
so that that's that actually I was I

2656
01:39:31,970 --> 01:39:29,340
wanted to ask you about that so that's

2657
01:39:35,090 --> 01:39:31,980
that's cool okay so

2658
01:39:37,129 --> 01:39:35,100
um there's a a concept that comes up a

2659
01:39:39,590 --> 01:39:37,139
lot in um

2660
01:39:41,510 --> 01:39:39,600
it's it literally has its origins in

2661
01:39:44,570 --> 01:39:41,520
some early 20th century biology but it

2662
01:39:47,090 --> 01:39:44,580
but it it actually no like like 1930s

2663
01:39:49,129 --> 01:39:47,100
biology but it but the same notion was

2664
01:39:50,390 --> 01:39:49,139
very operative in early phenomenology

2665
01:39:53,570 --> 01:39:50,400
and people like coaster roll and

2666
01:39:55,250 --> 01:39:53,580
Heidegger and it's become popular in

2667
01:39:56,570 --> 01:39:55,260
cognitive science if you wanted to see

2668
01:39:58,669 --> 01:39:56,580
it

2669
01:40:00,410 --> 01:39:58,679
um like deployed a guy named Andy Clark

2670
01:40:01,669 --> 01:40:00,420
who's a very important contemporary

2671
01:40:03,350 --> 01:40:01,679
cognitive science uses it quite a bit

2672
01:40:05,750 --> 01:40:03,360
but it's the notion of an um felt okay

2673
01:40:08,330 --> 01:40:05,760
the German word umvel which literally

2674
01:40:10,610 --> 01:40:08,340
would mean around the world okay it gets

2675
01:40:12,110 --> 01:40:10,620
translated as environment though I

2676
01:40:13,910 --> 01:40:12,120
I'm not a germanist but I don't quite

2677
01:40:16,189 --> 01:40:13,920
like that translation because it it

2678
01:40:18,410 --> 01:40:16,199
lends to misleading conclusions for

2679
01:40:22,729 --> 01:40:18,420
people speaking English but

2680
01:40:25,010 --> 01:40:22,739
umvelt is this like what the concept is

2681
01:40:27,410 --> 01:40:25,020
is that the world of perceptual

2682
01:40:30,590 --> 01:40:27,420
experience that's available to us is

2683
01:40:32,330 --> 01:40:30,600
it's a selection out of the possible

2684
01:40:35,090 --> 01:40:32,340
perceptual experiences there could be

2685
01:40:36,950 --> 01:40:35,100
and that selection is based on this sort

2686
01:40:39,350 --> 01:40:36,960
of interplay between the needs of an

2687
01:40:41,689 --> 01:40:39,360
organism and the means of meeting those

2688
01:40:43,129 --> 01:40:41,699
needs that has evolved okay and so the

2689
01:40:45,290 --> 01:40:43,139
best way to understand this is It's a

2690
01:40:46,669 --> 01:40:45,300
famous example Andy Clark uses it it

2691
01:40:49,669 --> 01:40:46,679
goes back to the original biology and

2692
01:40:51,050 --> 01:40:49,679
literature is you've got a tick right

2693
01:40:54,530 --> 01:40:51,060
and this there's a there's a there's

2694
01:40:57,470 --> 01:40:54,540
this tick is it really frames its whole

2695
01:41:02,090 --> 01:40:57,480
life around the amount of mammal skin

2696
01:41:04,970 --> 01:41:02,100
acid in the air right and heat and a

2697
01:41:07,129 --> 01:41:04,980
sense of surface pressure okay and it's

2698
01:41:09,290 --> 01:41:07,139
so good at this that it can time its

2699
01:41:11,390 --> 01:41:09,300
jump on you as you approach based on how

2700
01:41:13,970 --> 01:41:11,400
much acid it's sensing in the air okay

2701
01:41:16,430 --> 01:41:13,980
and then it can make its jump and then

2702
01:41:18,649 --> 01:41:16,440
it can sense when it's touching you has

2703
01:41:20,870 --> 01:41:18,659
a sense of the surface pressure and it

2704
01:41:24,410 --> 01:41:20,880
can sense heat so it knows where to bite

2705
01:41:27,169 --> 01:41:24,420
you Okay and like that's its world it's

2706
01:41:29,689 --> 01:41:27,179
got acid it's got pressure and it's got

2707
01:41:32,629 --> 01:41:29,699
heat and that's pretty much it okay

2708
01:41:34,189 --> 01:41:32,639
and he this little tick is getting the

2709
01:41:36,470 --> 01:41:34,199
world right in terms of those three

2710
01:41:39,050 --> 01:41:36,480
factors and it has senses like set up

2711
01:41:41,090 --> 01:41:39,060
perfectly to get that right okay but

2712
01:41:43,129 --> 01:41:41,100
when it when it jumps on Kelly not the

2713
01:41:44,689 --> 01:41:43,139
ufx right but but it jokes on Kelly to

2714
01:41:45,229 --> 01:41:44,699
Mike Kelly

2715
01:41:47,870 --> 01:41:45,239
um

2716
01:41:50,390 --> 01:41:47,880
he this little tick is just getting this

2717
01:41:53,030 --> 01:41:50,400
small sliver of the total being of Kelly

2718
01:41:55,310 --> 01:41:53,040
like you far outstrip

2719
01:41:57,229 --> 01:41:55,320
like what what the snapshot that that

2720
01:41:59,510 --> 01:41:57,239
tick can get is right

2721
01:42:01,609 --> 01:41:59,520
and and so the idea is yeah it has an um

2722
01:42:03,229 --> 01:42:01,619
felt it has an around world that it

2723
01:42:04,729 --> 01:42:03,239
constructs for itself not that it makes

2724
01:42:07,070 --> 01:42:04,739
it up it doesn't dream it up it's really

2725
01:42:08,870 --> 01:42:07,080
there but it's selective and it's

2726
01:42:11,149 --> 01:42:08,880
selective based on

2727
01:42:13,550 --> 01:42:11,159
what is relative to its actual needs and

2728
01:42:15,890 --> 01:42:13,560
its means for meeting them okay

2729
01:42:17,930 --> 01:42:15,900
and here's the the cool but like

2730
01:42:20,270 --> 01:42:17,940
troubling thing is it you know humans

2731
01:42:21,649 --> 01:42:20,280
have an oom felt like we have senses

2732
01:42:23,629 --> 01:42:21,659
those senses have an evolutionary

2733
01:42:26,629 --> 01:42:23,639
history right that evolutionary history

2734
01:42:29,689 --> 01:42:26,639
is conditioned by our needs okay and so

2735
01:42:31,790 --> 01:42:29,699
when I sense The Tick now in the same

2736
01:42:34,129 --> 01:42:31,800
way the tick has a caricature of me in

2737
01:42:36,590 --> 01:42:34,139
terms of certain sensory properties I

2738
01:42:38,030 --> 01:42:36,600
too have a caricature of the tick in

2739
01:42:39,649 --> 01:42:38,040
terms of the sensory properties that I'm

2740
01:42:42,350 --> 01:42:39,659
capable of picking up on

2741
01:42:44,390 --> 01:42:42,360
excuse me so so what's the idea here is

2742
01:42:46,310 --> 01:42:44,400
is we too

2743
01:42:48,169 --> 01:42:46,320
are only getting a selective view of the

2744
01:42:49,669 --> 01:42:48,179
world right okay

2745
01:42:51,649 --> 01:42:49,679
based on our senses and of course our

2746
01:42:53,870 --> 01:42:51,659
conceptualizations our Science is based

2747
01:42:56,149 --> 01:42:53,880
on that original limited perspective

2748
01:42:57,470 --> 01:42:56,159
that we take on it okay and I want to be

2749
01:42:58,609 --> 01:42:57,480
clear I'm not saying we just dreamed the

2750
01:43:00,109 --> 01:42:58,619
world up I'm not saying it's all

2751
01:43:02,990 --> 01:43:00,119
relatives like that that's not it the

2752
01:43:05,390 --> 01:43:03,000
point is is it's selective right we we

2753
01:43:08,629 --> 01:43:05,400
are selecting for relevance to us right

2754
01:43:10,790 --> 01:43:08,639
so we're we're in it okay now an example

2755
01:43:14,570 --> 01:43:10,800
I use in the paper is hey that that

2756
01:43:17,209 --> 01:43:14,580
little tick could be encounter things

2757
01:43:19,850 --> 01:43:17,219
from outside it's umvelt I call it it's

2758
01:43:20,510 --> 01:43:19,860
Uber umvelt right

2759
01:43:22,669 --> 01:43:20,520
um

2760
01:43:25,129 --> 01:43:22,679
and those things that's encountering

2761
01:43:28,370 --> 01:43:25,139
like may just not they're they're

2762
01:43:29,750 --> 01:43:28,380
they're not there in terms of skin acid

2763
01:43:31,430 --> 01:43:29,760
they're not there in terms of skin

2764
01:43:34,129 --> 01:43:31,440
surface pressure they're not there in

2765
01:43:36,530 --> 01:43:34,139
terms of heat or what have you okay but

2766
01:43:37,790 --> 01:43:36,540
they're really there right

2767
01:43:40,910 --> 01:43:37,800
um and so like we have to admit there's

2768
01:43:43,189 --> 01:43:40,920
a vast World outside of our own felt

2769
01:43:45,410 --> 01:43:43,199
there's a really big Uber umvelt out

2770
01:43:47,330 --> 01:43:45,420
there and our access to it is very very

2771
01:43:49,250 --> 01:43:47,340
limited actually if it's really out

2772
01:43:51,950 --> 01:43:49,260
there we don't have any access to it all

2773
01:43:53,390 --> 01:43:51,960
but it's there right like we too select

2774
01:43:55,370 --> 01:43:53,400
out of the possibilities for our

2775
01:43:58,370 --> 01:43:55,380
perceptions okay so we have to admit

2776
01:43:59,629 --> 01:43:58,380
like our ordinary arcade right we're

2777
01:44:01,490 --> 01:43:59,639
getting a pretty small chunk of what

2778
01:44:04,129 --> 01:44:01,500
there is to know okay

2779
01:44:04,970 --> 01:44:04,139
now and then I give examples of let's

2780
01:44:07,189 --> 01:44:04,980
say

2781
01:44:09,050 --> 01:44:07,199
um like we encounter like a shark right

2782
01:44:10,310 --> 01:44:09,060
like the shark has got its perceptual

2783
01:44:12,229 --> 01:44:10,320
capacities we've got our perceptual

2784
01:44:14,990 --> 01:44:12,239
capacities we probably won't really

2785
01:44:16,370 --> 01:44:15,000
evolved to deal with each other okay uh

2786
01:44:18,830 --> 01:44:16,380
and so we can show up on each other's

2787
01:44:20,629 --> 01:44:18,840
margins right like waking

2788
01:44:23,629 --> 01:44:20,639
you know like like we can kind of like

2789
01:44:25,189 --> 01:44:23,639
have a really limited sensory encounter

2790
01:44:27,229 --> 01:44:25,199
with each other but we don't understand

2791
01:44:29,510 --> 01:44:27,239
each other at all and it's uncanny like

2792
01:44:31,729 --> 01:44:29,520
the first time a human sees a shark

2793
01:44:33,890 --> 01:44:31,739
right without any preparation to be what

2794
01:44:36,229 --> 01:44:33,900
the hell is that right it's an alien

2795
01:44:38,090 --> 01:44:36,239
right the first time a shark sees one of

2796
01:44:39,890 --> 01:44:38,100
us whatever the shark version that is is

2797
01:44:41,870 --> 01:44:39,900
what the hell is that it's an alien okay

2798
01:44:44,629 --> 01:44:41,880
so where am I going with all this I'm

2799
01:44:47,750 --> 01:44:44,639
going to say look I think or here's a

2800
01:44:50,810 --> 01:44:47,760
model is what we're encountering when we

2801
01:44:52,970 --> 01:44:50,820
encounter the phenomenon right is we're

2802
01:44:56,050 --> 01:44:52,980
encountering things that may well be

2803
01:44:58,609 --> 01:44:56,060
from the earth okay they're not like

2804
01:45:00,350 --> 01:44:58,619
Breakaway civilizations that have like

2805
01:45:01,490 --> 01:45:00,360
you know have runaway technology and

2806
01:45:04,970 --> 01:45:01,500
they're conspiring something like that

2807
01:45:07,790 --> 01:45:04,980
they might just be other animals that

2808
01:45:09,770 --> 01:45:07,800
are very marginal to our umvelt right

2809
01:45:12,109 --> 01:45:09,780
that we aren't really set up to perceive

2810
01:45:14,570 --> 01:45:12,119
and we're bumping into them and like

2811
01:45:18,530 --> 01:45:14,580
having this very alien alienating

2812
01:45:20,570 --> 01:45:18,540
experience in doing that right and I

2813
01:45:22,010 --> 01:45:20,580
find that like like at the level of

2814
01:45:24,109 --> 01:45:22,020
epistemology very like helpful

2815
01:45:25,729 --> 01:45:24,119
hypothesis because it doesn't ask us to

2816
01:45:28,070 --> 01:45:25,739
like posit conspiracy theories it

2817
01:45:30,109 --> 01:45:28,080
doesn't ask us to like uh have to like

2818
01:45:32,030 --> 01:45:30,119
explain why this is so Elusive and we've

2819
01:45:33,290 --> 01:45:32,040
already got this going Concept in

2820
01:45:35,810 --> 01:45:33,300
cognitive science and biology and

2821
01:45:38,510 --> 01:45:35,820
phenomenology of the umvelt and what I'm

2822
01:45:39,830 --> 01:45:38,520
calling the Uber um felt right and it

2823
01:45:41,990 --> 01:45:39,840
shouldn't surprise us that maybe there's

2824
01:45:44,149 --> 01:45:42,000
some things there's some animals that we

2825
01:45:46,910 --> 01:45:44,159
don't have much evolutionary uh contact

2826
01:45:49,490 --> 01:45:46,920
with we run much of a common history and

2827
01:45:52,010 --> 01:45:49,500
we can just barely have a little contact

2828
01:45:53,870 --> 01:45:52,020
like in a shared room belt and that's it

2829
01:45:56,390 --> 01:45:53,880
right and it seems that if that happened

2830
01:45:59,330 --> 01:45:56,400
it would be spooky it would be crazy it

2831
01:46:01,729 --> 01:45:59,340
would be etc etc right right no it makes

2832
01:46:02,990 --> 01:46:01,739
me think of how like for I forget what

2833
01:46:06,290 --> 01:46:03,000
year

2834
01:46:08,390 --> 01:46:06,300
um but it was relatively late in history

2835
01:46:11,209 --> 01:46:08,400
when we realized that meteors were real

2836
01:46:12,709 --> 01:46:11,219
for a long time that was just a you know

2837
01:46:14,030 --> 01:46:12,719
sometimes like a farmer would tell a

2838
01:46:15,410 --> 01:46:14,040
story about this rock came out of the

2839
01:46:17,750 --> 01:46:15,420
sky and fell in my field and people were

2840
01:46:19,490 --> 01:46:17,760
like what are you talking about rocks

2841
01:46:22,010 --> 01:46:19,500
don't fall out of the sky we had no

2842
01:46:24,649 --> 01:46:22,020
model by which right Iraq would fall out

2843
01:46:29,209 --> 01:46:24,659
of this guy right and then let's say

2844
01:46:32,510 --> 01:46:29,219
let's say this these things are uh not

2845
01:46:36,470 --> 01:46:32,520
in the aspect of reality that like our

2846
01:46:38,629 --> 01:46:36,480
five senses hit okay even more foreign

2847
01:46:40,430 --> 01:46:38,639
than Iraq like yeah it's not just the

2848
01:46:41,810 --> 01:46:40,440
model that's the issue it's not our

2849
01:46:43,250 --> 01:46:41,820
intellectual it's something else it's

2850
01:46:45,290 --> 01:46:43,260
like look I mean

2851
01:46:47,990 --> 01:46:45,300
if it if it's not if it's not

2852
01:46:49,970 --> 01:46:48,000
manifesting itself in terms of skin acid

2853
01:46:51,169 --> 01:46:49,980
or heat or surface pressure The Tick

2854
01:46:55,970 --> 01:46:51,179
doesn't get it

2855
01:46:57,590 --> 01:46:55,980
so let's say like at best the thing's

2856
01:46:59,510 --> 01:46:57,600
got like a little skin acid-ish

2857
01:47:01,669 --> 01:46:59,520
something that kind of kind of barely

2858
01:47:03,649 --> 01:47:01,679
trips the skin acid detector of the tick

2859
01:47:04,910 --> 01:47:03,659
well the tick might register it but it's

2860
01:47:08,390 --> 01:47:04,920
going to make very little sense to it

2861
01:47:10,729 --> 01:47:08,400
right I think I know who knows right but

2862
01:47:12,109 --> 01:47:10,739
like I'm I'm avering the model wherein

2863
01:47:14,209 --> 01:47:12,119
like that's kind of like what the

2864
01:47:17,270 --> 01:47:14,219
phenomenon is it's something that just

2865
01:47:20,990 --> 01:47:17,280
barely registers it's not our visual or

2866
01:47:22,970 --> 01:47:21,000
tactile or olfactory senses and so it's

2867
01:47:26,030 --> 01:47:22,980
we can we can't even really model it

2868
01:47:28,669 --> 01:47:26,040
it's just beyond our sensory pale right

2869
01:47:31,250 --> 01:47:28,679
yeah it makes me think of um

2870
01:47:33,470 --> 01:47:31,260
it's kind of similar to Donald Hoffman's

2871
01:47:35,270 --> 01:47:33,480
work and what you know he's saying about

2872
01:47:39,290 --> 01:47:35,280
how and I'll talk about that in the next

2873
01:47:42,590 --> 01:47:39,300
episode about how not just that we

2874
01:47:45,850 --> 01:47:42,600
may not have evolved to see the world as

2875
01:47:47,990 --> 01:47:45,860
it is but we necessarily have not

2876
01:47:49,430 --> 01:47:48,000
evolved to see the world in the way that

2877
01:47:52,250 --> 01:47:49,440
it is in the same way that the tick

2878
01:47:56,149 --> 01:47:52,260
didn't evolve to see the world as it is

2879
01:47:59,149 --> 01:47:56,159
we evolved to yeah deal with the things

2880
01:48:00,709 --> 01:47:59,159
that are most relevant to us in our

2881
01:48:03,590 --> 01:48:00,719
survival day to day

2882
01:48:06,290 --> 01:48:03,600
and what if there's something that

2883
01:48:08,149 --> 01:48:06,300
the properties of which are not relevant

2884
01:48:10,669 --> 01:48:08,159
to that evolutionary history and then we

2885
01:48:12,890 --> 01:48:10,679
start bumping into that thing

2886
01:48:14,750 --> 01:48:12,900
right it would it would be utterly

2887
01:48:17,629 --> 01:48:14,760
uncanny and I like to play it would be

2888
01:48:20,030 --> 01:48:17,639
alien right yeah the alien to us that's

2889
01:48:21,950 --> 01:48:20,040
what I'm getting at right like um

2890
01:48:23,090 --> 01:48:21,960
there's a very recent very uh episode

2891
01:48:26,629 --> 01:48:23,100
with

2892
01:48:28,609 --> 01:48:26,639
um was it John variki and uh Hoffman on

2893
01:48:30,530 --> 01:48:28,619
on theories of everything

2894
01:48:32,990 --> 01:48:30,540
very good dialogue like if you want to

2895
01:48:34,910 --> 01:48:33,000
go like go into this direction

2896
01:48:37,070 --> 01:48:34,920
um it's a very good way to look at it

2897
01:48:39,410 --> 01:48:37,080
right uh just in terms of the the

2898
01:48:42,229 --> 01:48:39,420
cognitive science of of Sensations like

2899
01:48:44,390 --> 01:48:42,239
that but the the the point though is is

2900
01:48:46,550 --> 01:48:44,400
like we sort for relevance right this is

2901
01:48:47,990 --> 01:48:46,560
variki's work like we sort the world for

2902
01:48:49,310 --> 01:48:48,000
relevance and so what isn't relevant

2903
01:48:51,890 --> 01:48:49,320
we're kind of like designed to leave

2904
01:48:53,689 --> 01:48:51,900
behind okay that means we're leaving a

2905
01:48:55,250 --> 01:48:53,699
lot behind in reality that isn't

2906
01:48:56,750 --> 01:48:55,260
relevant to

2907
01:48:59,270 --> 01:48:56,760
let me have to remember it wasn't

2908
01:49:01,910 --> 01:48:59,280
relevant to our like sub-Saharan

2909
01:49:03,709 --> 01:49:01,920
ancestors 200 000 years ago when like

2910
01:49:05,870 --> 01:49:03,719
the final like human cognitive package

2911
01:49:07,669 --> 01:49:05,880
of final for the moment came online you

2912
01:49:09,229 --> 01:49:07,679
know what I mean so and so when I say

2913
01:49:10,850 --> 01:49:09,239
relevant I mean like relevant to our

2914
01:49:12,470 --> 01:49:10,860
evolutionary past it might be relevant

2915
01:49:15,470 --> 01:49:12,480
as hell now if like they're showing up

2916
01:49:17,390 --> 01:49:15,480
to take us over now right okay right but

2917
01:49:20,450 --> 01:49:17,400
it but it wasn't relevant to like how

2918
01:49:23,050 --> 01:49:20,460
our Machinery got got set up right and

2919
01:49:25,129 --> 01:49:23,060
so the that that Machinery because

2920
01:49:27,590 --> 01:49:25,139
choices were made by Evolution as to

2921
01:49:29,450 --> 01:49:27,600
what we would perceive left more behind

2922
01:49:32,090 --> 01:49:29,460
probably than it included that's the

2923
01:49:33,590 --> 01:49:32,100
point is to sort right so there's things

2924
01:49:34,790 --> 01:49:33,600
like how many things are in this room

2925
01:49:36,649 --> 01:49:34,800
right now that I don't perceive just

2926
01:49:39,229 --> 01:49:36,659
because it was irrelevant to my

2927
01:49:41,030 --> 01:49:39,239
evolutionary ancestors whoa this isn't

2928
01:49:43,070 --> 01:49:41,040
that a freaky thought right right and

2929
01:49:45,830 --> 01:49:43,080
then if one of those things just has

2930
01:49:47,870 --> 01:49:45,840
enough to be relevant-ish to my my

2931
01:49:50,209 --> 01:49:47,880
sensory apparatus it's going to show up

2932
01:49:53,270 --> 01:49:50,219
in like very strange ways right

2933
01:49:54,590 --> 01:49:53,280
yeah no it makes me think of um I mean a

2934
01:49:55,970 --> 01:49:54,600
great example is like all the

2935
01:49:58,850 --> 01:49:55,980
electromagnetism that's in this room

2936
01:50:00,229 --> 01:49:58,860
right now from all the technology in

2937
01:50:01,910 --> 01:50:00,239
this room

2938
01:50:03,649 --> 01:50:01,920
um you know and that was a that was a

2939
01:50:05,570 --> 01:50:03,659
point that sheldrake made in that paper

2940
01:50:08,410 --> 01:50:05,580
about you know is the sun conscious

2941
01:50:11,750 --> 01:50:08,420
exactly and you know in terms of

2942
01:50:13,090 --> 01:50:11,760
electromagnetism that if a b like like

2943
01:50:15,050 --> 01:50:13,100
what if a being was an

2944
01:50:17,689 --> 01:50:15,060
electromagnetically based being as

2945
01:50:19,550 --> 01:50:17,699
opposed to a carbon-based life form we

2946
01:50:21,709 --> 01:50:19,560
wouldn't know about those probably

2947
01:50:22,790 --> 01:50:21,719
wouldn't know about it unless and

2948
01:50:24,169 --> 01:50:22,800
couldn't now we can detect

2949
01:50:26,090 --> 01:50:24,179
electromagnetism or something like that

2950
01:50:27,830 --> 01:50:26,100
but sure might there be things even

2951
01:50:29,390 --> 01:50:27,840
further out from our umel that we can't

2952
01:50:31,010 --> 01:50:29,400
even detect them like that and I think

2953
01:50:32,209 --> 01:50:31,020
we have no reason to think that there

2954
01:50:34,550 --> 01:50:32,219
aren't I think good reason to think that

2955
01:50:36,830 --> 01:50:34,560
there are just because the way Evolution

2956
01:50:39,470 --> 01:50:36,840
works is to like narrow our perceptual

2957
01:50:41,450 --> 01:50:39,480
field within like practical bounds right

2958
01:50:43,310 --> 01:50:41,460
right well then like you were talking

2959
01:50:44,930 --> 01:50:43,320
about before a lot of this gives us the

2960
01:50:47,689 --> 01:50:44,940
ability to potentially go back and

2961
01:50:49,790 --> 01:50:47,699
resurrect some of those the older wisdom

2962
01:50:52,970 --> 01:50:49,800
because you know we we tend to think

2963
01:50:53,870 --> 01:50:52,980
well of course for the only people here

2964
01:50:55,370 --> 01:50:53,880
um you know humans are the only

2965
01:50:57,770 --> 01:50:55,380
Intelligence on this planet but that has

2966
01:51:00,109 --> 01:50:57,780
not been the predominant belief of

2967
01:51:01,609 --> 01:51:00,119
humans right throughout time and so you

2968
01:51:04,490 --> 01:51:01,619
have to wonder like what are the fairies

2969
01:51:07,250 --> 01:51:04,500
what are the gym what are the the gods

2970
01:51:09,770 --> 01:51:07,260
this one I think this this notion of the

2971
01:51:11,270 --> 01:51:09,780
the um versus The Uber umbel I see it's

2972
01:51:13,010 --> 01:51:11,280
like a friendly recommendation to like

2973
01:51:14,270 --> 01:51:13,020
the research program because

2974
01:51:16,609 --> 01:51:14,280
like what's he trying to do because like

2975
01:51:19,550 --> 01:51:16,619
he's not sane and I'm not saying there's

2976
01:51:21,649 --> 01:51:19,560
nothing magical about this like small

2977
01:51:23,629 --> 01:51:21,659
and magical right we're not essentially

2978
01:51:26,450 --> 01:51:23,639
mysterious about it what I'm saying is

2979
01:51:28,609 --> 01:51:26,460
like once you realize this the nature

2980
01:51:30,530 --> 01:51:28,619
supernature distinction just broke down

2981
01:51:32,030 --> 01:51:30,540
it doesn't mean there's only nature it

2982
01:51:35,530 --> 01:51:32,040
doesn't mean there's only supernature it

2983
01:51:38,090 --> 01:51:35,540
means nature is super right

2984
01:51:39,590 --> 01:51:38,100
what do you mean right is like it

2985
01:51:41,209 --> 01:51:39,600
doesn't mean that there's the normal and

2986
01:51:44,390 --> 01:51:41,219
the Paranormal it means like the normal

2987
01:51:46,250 --> 01:51:44,400
is Paranormal because it because because

2988
01:51:48,649 --> 01:51:46,260
it's it I'm not saying there's another

2989
01:51:51,109 --> 01:51:48,659
realm but I'm not saying

2990
01:51:54,229 --> 01:51:51,119
the realm we're in isn't full of things

2991
01:51:57,109 --> 01:51:54,239
that are absolutely foreign to our

2992
01:51:58,490 --> 01:51:57,119
boring cave reality right

2993
01:52:00,169 --> 01:51:58,500
that makes a lot of sense to me

2994
01:52:02,689 --> 01:52:00,179
especially I mean something really cool

2995
01:52:05,330 --> 01:52:02,699
that's happening in the UFO Community

2996
01:52:09,350 --> 01:52:05,340
right now and across kind of these weird

2997
01:52:10,790 --> 01:52:09,360
groups weird weirdo groups is um you

2998
01:52:13,189 --> 01:52:10,800
know I think that people are starting to

2999
01:52:15,830 --> 01:52:13,199
we're starting to reach out to you know

3000
01:52:18,229 --> 01:52:15,840
Bigfoot researchers and you know

3001
01:52:19,550 --> 01:52:18,239
paranormal investigators and and all of

3002
01:52:21,830 --> 01:52:19,560
that and these things we used to be in

3003
01:52:23,570 --> 01:52:21,840
our own little camps but as you started

3004
01:52:25,790 --> 01:52:23,580
something that like I've suddenly gotten

3005
01:52:29,510 --> 01:52:25,800
fascinated with Bigfoot the reason being

3006
01:52:32,330 --> 01:52:29,520
that I see all the ways in which that

3007
01:52:34,669 --> 01:52:32,340
phenomenon Maps almost perfectly to the

3008
01:52:36,590 --> 01:52:34,679
UFO phenomenon in terms of you know

3009
01:52:38,450 --> 01:52:36,600
there's the there's the

3010
01:52:40,490 --> 01:52:38,460
there's the nuts and bolts and there's

3011
01:52:42,590 --> 01:52:40,500
the Consciousness like there's it all

3012
01:52:44,149 --> 01:52:42,600
maps it all maps and the construction

3013
01:52:45,890 --> 01:52:44,159
people undergrades come up again and

3014
01:52:48,530 --> 01:52:45,900
again and again yeah yes and so it's

3015
01:52:50,570 --> 01:52:48,540
these things happen so it's what I like

3016
01:52:52,310 --> 01:52:50,580
about it is this idea that if we start

3017
01:52:53,330 --> 01:52:52,320
to look at these different things like

3018
01:52:54,290 --> 01:52:53,340
you're saying that these things from

3019
01:52:57,189 --> 01:52:54,300
like our

3020
01:53:00,590 --> 01:52:57,199
you know kind of outside of the um belt

3021
01:53:02,109 --> 01:53:00,600
that pop in from time to time it seems

3022
01:53:05,209 --> 01:53:02,119
like there are

3023
01:53:07,430 --> 01:53:05,219
similarities into like the ways in which

3024
01:53:10,010 --> 01:53:07,440
that manifests itself when it manifests

3025
01:53:11,330 --> 01:53:10,020
itself how it manifests itself and so it

3026
01:53:13,430 --> 01:53:11,340
makes you wonder like there might be

3027
01:53:15,830 --> 01:53:13,440
rules or something like like there might

3028
01:53:17,570 --> 01:53:15,840
be a way we might one day understand why

3029
01:53:19,669 --> 01:53:17,580
we see things that we're not supposed to

3030
01:53:22,010 --> 01:53:19,679
say that that's exact that's to my

3031
01:53:24,350 --> 01:53:22,020
understanding that is uh Jeffrey

3032
01:53:25,609 --> 01:53:24,360
cripple's research program yeah right

3033
01:53:28,070 --> 01:53:25,619
you can tell I read a lot of

3034
01:53:30,109 --> 01:53:28,080
yeah no uh and so like crab is

3035
01:53:32,750 --> 01:53:30,119
interesting guy for me and uh

3036
01:53:34,250 --> 01:53:32,760
I like okay for me I was okay I was into

3037
01:53:35,810 --> 01:53:34,260
the UFO thing but it had it was like

3038
01:53:36,890 --> 01:53:35,820
very nuts and bolts and then like oh no

3039
01:53:37,910 --> 01:53:36,900
that's it doesn't seem like it's nuts

3040
01:53:40,070 --> 01:53:37,920
and bolts and then it's like okay I'm

3041
01:53:42,530 --> 01:53:40,080
into the UFO thing but I'm not going for

3042
01:53:44,390 --> 01:53:42,540
the abduction thing right and then I

3043
01:53:47,149 --> 01:53:44,400
read uh the book that wrote with

3044
01:53:48,770 --> 01:53:47,159
Whitney strieber I'm like okay dang it I

3045
01:53:51,169 --> 01:53:48,780
didn't want to go there but here I am

3046
01:53:52,850 --> 01:53:51,179
it's it's very hard to deny that

3047
01:53:54,950 --> 01:53:52,860
something happened to that man right

3048
01:53:57,470 --> 01:53:54,960
right you know what I mean

3049
01:53:59,810 --> 01:53:57,480
um and so like like so I have to

3050
01:54:02,090 --> 01:53:59,820
thank for like really pulling me into

3051
01:54:04,669 --> 01:54:02,100
this right but he's brilliant because he

3052
01:54:05,750 --> 01:54:04,679
he and you can see his influence on on

3053
01:54:08,030 --> 01:54:05,760
my

3054
01:54:09,590 --> 01:54:08,040
less influential work I'm not comparing

3055
01:54:10,850 --> 01:54:09,600
myself to right but like you can

3056
01:54:14,209 --> 01:54:10,860
see his influence on my thinking here

3057
01:54:16,310 --> 01:54:14,219
because in his saying that notion of

3058
01:54:19,250 --> 01:54:16,320
super space nature as opposed to

3059
01:54:21,770 --> 01:54:19,260
Supernatural he found a way I think to

3060
01:54:23,570 --> 01:54:21,780
really diffuse a lot of the hands-off

3061
01:54:25,910 --> 01:54:23,580
feeling that academics have about this

3062
01:54:27,410 --> 01:54:25,920
right right I think I think what he's

3063
01:54:29,450 --> 01:54:27,420
done there is

3064
01:54:31,189 --> 01:54:29,460
um I think philosophically very well

3065
01:54:35,090 --> 01:54:31,199
grounded but also rhetorically brilliant

3066
01:54:36,950 --> 01:54:35,100
right yeah no he's he's something else I

3067
01:54:38,930 --> 01:54:36,960
got I was lucky enough to meet him in

3068
01:54:40,310 --> 01:54:38,940
New York and on top of just being

3069
01:54:42,350 --> 01:54:40,320
brilliant he's like one of the nicest

3070
01:54:45,290 --> 01:54:42,360
human beings you could ever meet

3071
01:54:47,270 --> 01:54:45,300
in your life and a and a sparkling

3072
01:54:48,890 --> 01:54:47,280
conversationalist that's great I'm not

3073
01:54:50,990 --> 01:54:48,900
surprised that based on his writings

3074
01:54:52,970 --> 01:54:51,000
yeah yeah sitting next to him at dinner

3075
01:54:54,410 --> 01:54:52,980
is like a treat yeah and so I think it's

3076
01:54:56,629 --> 01:54:54,420
important to note like okay so for

3077
01:54:59,629 --> 01:54:56,639
instance if you go with like this this

3078
01:55:02,510 --> 01:54:59,639
nature the super space nature that like

3079
01:55:04,430 --> 01:55:02,520
a crypol has in mind or like this umvelt

3080
01:55:05,810 --> 01:55:04,440
versus Uber um belt that I have in mind

3081
01:55:07,609 --> 01:55:05,820
and I think the distinctions kind of map

3082
01:55:08,390 --> 01:55:07,619
on each other

3083
01:55:10,910 --> 01:55:08,400
um

3084
01:55:13,430 --> 01:55:10,920
like say I don't see this as like

3085
01:55:15,169 --> 01:55:13,440
anything unfriendly to a religious

3086
01:55:16,970 --> 01:55:15,179
believer right because people aren't

3087
01:55:18,410 --> 01:55:16,980
saying this stuff isn't real it's just

3088
01:55:20,330 --> 01:55:18,420
we're trying to come up with a model

3089
01:55:22,250 --> 01:55:20,340
right

3090
01:55:24,169 --> 01:55:22,260
um that like pulls it onto under a

3091
01:55:26,270 --> 01:55:24,179
single coherent like approach to the

3092
01:55:29,030 --> 01:55:26,280
world right if you're do you know what I

3093
01:55:31,910 --> 01:55:29,040
mean so but also I think it it does show

3094
01:55:32,990 --> 01:55:31,920
how like uh a non-religious believer of

3095
01:55:34,490 --> 01:55:33,000
materialist could like actually

3096
01:55:35,990 --> 01:55:34,500
entertain some of this stuff in a way

3097
01:55:38,090 --> 01:55:36,000
which I think is very helpful right

3098
01:55:40,189 --> 01:55:38,100
right well what I think it's interesting

3099
01:55:42,530 --> 01:55:40,199
about it too is that um I don't think

3100
01:55:43,609 --> 01:55:42,540
it's at all it doesn't there's nothing

3101
01:55:45,830 --> 01:55:43,619
about it that's like a direct challenge

3102
01:55:47,390 --> 01:55:45,840
to the religious believer but at the

3103
01:55:49,790 --> 01:55:47,400
same time there is something that I

3104
01:55:51,950 --> 01:55:49,800
think changes the nature of religious

3105
01:55:53,510 --> 01:55:51,960
belief for a lot of people you know I

3106
01:55:54,709 --> 01:55:53,520
think what was really interesting I've

3107
01:55:56,510 --> 01:55:54,719
gone back and listened to my interview

3108
01:55:58,430 --> 01:55:56,520
with Diana a few times because you know

3109
01:56:00,590 --> 01:55:58,440
she's just so brilliant and I hear new

3110
01:56:02,870 --> 01:56:00,600
things each time and you know really

3111
01:56:05,510 --> 01:56:02,880
when I asked her about like what how has

3112
01:56:07,669 --> 01:56:05,520
this changed because she's a she's a

3113
01:56:10,729 --> 01:56:07,679
practicing Catholic and you know a

3114
01:56:14,090 --> 01:56:10,739
believer yeah and so like in but there's

3115
01:56:16,490 --> 01:56:14,100
something that changes you can believe

3116
01:56:18,530 --> 01:56:16,500
all of those things and like truly

3117
01:56:20,870 --> 01:56:18,540
believe them but there's something about

3118
01:56:23,689 --> 01:56:20,880
this that changes even the nature of

3119
01:56:25,910 --> 01:56:23,699
that belief because it it seems like it

3120
01:56:28,490 --> 01:56:25,920
opens it up it makes it bigger than it

3121
01:56:31,070 --> 01:56:28,500
was before yeah and and I think I mean

3122
01:56:32,890 --> 01:56:31,080
I'm I'll be interesting to talk to Diana

3123
01:56:35,510 --> 01:56:32,900
about this someday right

3124
01:56:40,370 --> 01:56:35,520
uh bring us both on a little like have a

3125
01:56:42,770 --> 01:56:40,380
thing yeah but it's gonna be harder to

3126
01:56:45,050 --> 01:56:42,780
see I think like religious exclusivism

3127
01:56:47,149 --> 01:56:45,060
is is going to be harder right because

3128
01:56:48,410 --> 01:56:47,159
okay because you're going to say no it

3129
01:56:50,689 --> 01:56:48,420
looks like this what I thought was

3130
01:56:53,629 --> 01:56:50,699
Supernatural stuff is a feature of a

3131
01:56:55,510 --> 01:56:53,639
super nature okay it's gonna be hard

3132
01:56:57,709 --> 01:56:55,520
like and so you're gonna rule in

3133
01:56:59,209 --> 01:56:57,719
supernature for your particular

3134
01:57:01,070 --> 01:56:59,219
tradition but it looks like the other

3135
01:57:01,910 --> 01:57:01,080
Traditions are going to be on much the

3136
01:57:03,890 --> 01:57:01,920
same

3137
01:57:05,090 --> 01:57:03,900
footing in terms of my evidence for it

3138
01:57:07,189 --> 01:57:05,100
right so it looks like you're gonna have

3139
01:57:09,109 --> 01:57:07,199
to like bring in more than a lot of like

3140
01:57:11,350 --> 01:57:09,119
various responsible Believers want to

3141
01:57:14,330 --> 01:57:11,360
that doesn't trouble me

3142
01:57:15,950 --> 01:57:14,340
but I could see some religious Believers

3143
01:57:17,330 --> 01:57:15,960
I'm not saying Diane I don't think this

3144
01:57:18,290 --> 01:57:17,340
would trouble down either but I think

3145
01:57:19,550 --> 01:57:18,300
some of us believe that's going to

3146
01:57:22,070 --> 01:57:19,560
trouble them right but you're right it

3147
01:57:23,270 --> 01:57:22,080
changes because I think what's going to

3148
01:57:24,589 --> 01:57:23,280
worry people more about this kind of

3149
01:57:26,689 --> 01:57:24,599
like approach to

3150
01:57:29,510 --> 01:57:26,699
the Paranormal or you know the the

3151
01:57:31,850 --> 01:57:29,520
phenomenon is

3152
01:57:34,250 --> 01:57:31,860
it's gonna let a lot in it's not going

3153
01:57:35,689 --> 01:57:34,260
to exclude a lot right like I feel like

3154
01:57:37,129 --> 01:57:35,699
I find this like okay I took the UFO

3155
01:57:38,570 --> 01:57:37,139
seriously I went out all of a sudden now

3156
01:57:40,850 --> 01:57:38,580
wait I gotta take abduction seriously

3157
01:57:43,129 --> 01:57:40,860
because the evidence I have for the UFO

3158
01:57:44,890 --> 01:57:43,139
is kind of on par now with the abduction

3159
01:57:47,330 --> 01:57:44,900
thing and now look I'm taking like

3160
01:57:49,070 --> 01:57:47,340
ghosts and fairies seriously right

3161
01:57:50,629 --> 01:57:49,080
because the evidence like we have this

3162
01:57:53,270 --> 01:57:50,639
parody of evidence thing going across

3163
01:57:56,089 --> 01:57:53,280
there and like now Jin am I I'm going

3164
01:57:59,330 --> 01:57:56,099
for the genie thing now too right and

3165
01:58:02,629 --> 01:57:59,340
all this stuff right and so I think it's

3166
01:58:04,490 --> 01:58:02,639
it is it is like ontologically very I

3167
01:58:07,189 --> 01:58:04,500
had an advisor in grad school who like

3168
01:58:10,189 --> 01:58:07,199
to talk about ontological promiscuity

3169
01:58:11,750 --> 01:58:10,199
right it's like a lot of kind of beans

3170
01:58:13,609 --> 01:58:11,760
into your ontology right it's

3171
01:58:15,950 --> 01:58:13,619
ontologically promiscuous right which

3172
01:58:17,570 --> 01:58:15,960
means it's gonna force you to be kind of

3173
01:58:19,310 --> 01:58:17,580
more pluralistic I think in your overall

3174
01:58:21,530 --> 01:58:19,320
view of things right but one could do

3175
01:58:22,790 --> 01:58:21,540
worse than to be that way I think no I

3176
01:58:24,709 --> 01:58:22,800
think that's great I was gonna say I I

3177
01:58:28,010 --> 01:58:24,719
will use that I feel like I'm very

3178
01:58:31,250 --> 01:58:28,020
ontologically promiscuous yeah my my

3179
01:58:33,470 --> 01:58:31,260
Master's thesis advisor was a a man he's

3180
01:58:35,330 --> 01:58:33,480
deceased now quantity was his name just

3181
01:58:35,950 --> 01:58:35,340
a wonderful guy hilarious guy he talked

3182
01:58:38,510 --> 01:58:35,960
about

3183
01:58:41,510 --> 01:58:38,520
ontologically promiscuous people and

3184
01:58:44,750 --> 01:58:41,520
ontologically prudish people right and

3185
01:58:47,510 --> 01:58:44,760
Plato was promiscuous right uh you know

3186
01:58:49,310 --> 01:58:47,520
like Occam was prudish right so yeah

3187
01:58:50,510 --> 01:58:49,320
exactly

3188
01:58:53,570 --> 01:58:50,520
makes a lot makes a lot of sense well

3189
01:58:56,750 --> 01:58:55,250
this is a question I've actually asked

3190
01:58:59,330 --> 01:58:56,760
Diana because this is something I'm very

3191
01:59:03,229 --> 01:58:59,340
intrigued by I I may never get an answer

3192
01:59:05,089 --> 01:59:03,239
that fully satisfies me but so I was

3193
01:59:06,890 --> 01:59:05,099
raised Catholic I'm not a practicing

3194
01:59:07,850 --> 01:59:06,900
Catholic but also Catholicism is kind of

3195
01:59:08,810 --> 01:59:07,860
like the mob and you never really get

3196
01:59:09,490 --> 01:59:08,820
out

3197
01:59:12,830 --> 01:59:09,500
um

3198
01:59:14,089 --> 01:59:12,840
but it's true you're always kind of well

3199
01:59:15,649 --> 01:59:14,099
you're it's like being Jewish you're

3200
01:59:18,169 --> 01:59:15,659
like culturally Catholic even if you're

3201
01:59:18,830 --> 01:59:18,179
not practicing right so

3202
01:59:21,770 --> 01:59:18,840
um

3203
01:59:23,209 --> 01:59:21,780
anyways so Diana uh is a practicing

3204
01:59:24,950 --> 01:59:23,219
Catholic you know you're practicing

3205
01:59:26,810 --> 01:59:24,960
Catholic uh Jeffrey kreifel is a

3206
01:59:28,850 --> 01:59:26,820
practicing Catholic there's an enormous

3207
01:59:30,530 --> 01:59:28,860
it seems to me that there's a lot of and

3208
01:59:32,930 --> 01:59:30,540
Diana's even said that among the

3209
01:59:34,729 --> 01:59:32,940
invisible college that there is a very

3210
01:59:37,609 --> 01:59:34,739
large percentage of practicing Catholics

3211
01:59:39,770 --> 01:59:37,619
Tyler becomes converts to a Catholic in

3212
01:59:41,510 --> 01:59:39,780
in American Cosmic and I don't think

3213
01:59:43,370 --> 01:59:41,520
that Diana and I'm sure you wouldn't

3214
01:59:45,649 --> 01:59:43,380
like are necessarily suggesting that

3215
01:59:47,209 --> 01:59:45,659
like that means that Catholicism is the

3216
01:59:49,850 --> 01:59:47,219
ultimate religion but what do you think

3217
01:59:52,189 --> 01:59:49,860
about it is a or do you have an opinion

3218
01:59:54,530 --> 01:59:52,199
on what it might be about Catholicism

3219
01:59:55,550 --> 01:59:54,540
that sets people up to kind of think in

3220
01:59:58,129 --> 01:59:55,560
this way

3221
02:00:05,149 --> 01:59:58,139
well uh Catholicism is very

3222
02:00:09,890 --> 02:00:08,270
so you know uh uh I mean we man well

3223
02:00:11,870 --> 02:00:09,900
first of all like Catholics man we love

3224
02:00:13,850 --> 02:00:11,880
our lore right like we we've got all

3225
02:00:15,410 --> 02:00:13,860
sorts of myths and stories and you know

3226
02:00:17,570 --> 02:00:15,420
like everybody you know

3227
02:00:20,209 --> 02:00:17,580
everybody's seeing you know the Blessed

3228
02:00:21,709 --> 02:00:20,219
Mother in a you know bowl of you know

3229
02:00:23,330 --> 02:00:21,719
Corn Flakes or something like that yeah

3230
02:00:25,129 --> 02:00:23,340
and as you know like you were raised

3231
02:00:26,870 --> 02:00:25,139
Catholic in some circles that's taken

3232
02:00:29,570 --> 02:00:26,880
fairly seriously right I mean maybe

3233
02:00:32,390 --> 02:00:29,580
seriously okay uh so one I think there

3234
02:00:35,030 --> 02:00:32,400
just is a kind of Mythic ontological

3235
02:00:37,370 --> 02:00:35,040
promiscuity to Catholicism which I I

3236
02:00:39,470 --> 02:00:37,380
think fulfills a legit human need true

3237
02:00:42,229 --> 02:00:39,480
or not it fulfills a legitimate need

3238
02:00:44,750 --> 02:00:42,239
right okay so I think that's part of it

3239
02:00:45,709 --> 02:00:44,760
is just that maybe Catholics should be a

3240
02:00:47,930 --> 02:00:45,719
little more

3241
02:00:49,490 --> 02:00:47,940
maybe we're really quick to believe in

3242
02:00:51,470 --> 02:00:49,500
the Paranormal right because we've been

3243
02:00:53,149 --> 02:00:51,480
raised paranormal in a lot of ways right

3244
02:00:56,450 --> 02:00:53,159
so I think that that might be part of it

3245
02:00:59,510 --> 02:00:56,460
right also I think too if you okay

3246
02:01:00,830 --> 02:00:59,520
thinking like reading American Cosmic

3247
02:01:03,470 --> 02:01:00,840
okay

3248
02:01:06,530 --> 02:01:03,480
uh I wasn't too surprised when Tyler

3249
02:01:09,950 --> 02:01:06,540
converted okay because of the protocol

3250
02:01:11,930 --> 02:01:09,960
thing okay like Catholics were

3251
02:01:14,089 --> 02:01:11,940
procedurals right you know we've got our

3252
02:01:16,070 --> 02:01:14,099
like like you know like you you were

3253
02:01:17,570 --> 02:01:16,080
raised Catholic you know but like

3254
02:01:20,629 --> 02:01:17,580
you know we're very it's a very

3255
02:01:22,370 --> 02:01:20,639
procedural religion right I could see a

3256
02:01:24,830 --> 02:01:22,380
guy who's like really into these like

3257
02:01:26,629 --> 02:01:24,840
protocol approaches to things right

3258
02:01:28,490 --> 02:01:26,639
would like it like something like being

3259
02:01:31,310 --> 02:01:28,500
a monk would really really resonate with

3260
02:01:33,470 --> 02:01:31,320
that guy and he said she describes them

3261
02:01:36,290 --> 02:01:33,480
almost as a monk before he even converts

3262
02:01:38,990 --> 02:01:36,300
right yeah so I think that makes sense

3263
02:01:42,530 --> 02:01:39,000
right did you see that yeah

3264
02:01:43,609 --> 02:01:42,540
yeah and and and and so uh that that's

3265
02:01:46,010 --> 02:01:43,619
probably why I would think it would

3266
02:01:48,530 --> 02:01:46,020
stray stray towards Catholic right but

3267
02:01:50,990 --> 02:01:48,540
that's that's why bad like armchair uh

3268
02:01:52,310 --> 02:01:51,000
sociology right but yeah exactly I don't

3269
02:01:54,350 --> 02:01:52,320
think I'll ever come to a great answer

3270
02:01:55,729 --> 02:01:54,360
but I do find it really interesting to

3271
02:01:57,649 --> 02:01:55,739
think about I mean do you think that

3272
02:01:59,570 --> 02:01:57,659
there's an aspect of protestantism that

3273
02:02:02,810 --> 02:01:59,580
like strips the mystical out of

3274
02:02:05,270 --> 02:02:02,820
Christianity in a way like and and

3275
02:02:07,129 --> 02:02:05,280
definitely the ritual right like not all

3276
02:02:08,270 --> 02:02:07,139
of it but a lot of it

3277
02:02:10,550 --> 02:02:08,280
um

3278
02:02:12,109 --> 02:02:10,560
you know which is not to I'm in no way

3279
02:02:13,550 --> 02:02:12,119
making a comment on like the value of

3280
02:02:15,350 --> 02:02:13,560
any religion over another it's just like

3281
02:02:16,970 --> 02:02:15,360
but I'm just I'm interested in what it

3282
02:02:18,830 --> 02:02:16,980
is about Catholicism that seems to make

3283
02:02:21,530 --> 02:02:18,840
it easier to make people to get people

3284
02:02:23,330 --> 02:02:21,540
to make this leap was it a strieber a

3285
02:02:24,950 --> 02:02:23,340
lapsed Catholic

3286
02:02:26,770 --> 02:02:24,960
wasn't that the idea you may be right

3287
02:02:31,609 --> 02:02:26,780
about that I'm not 100

3288
02:02:33,709 --> 02:02:31,619
yeah so yeah and also you know I I just

3289
02:02:36,290 --> 02:02:33,719
think that is is like like Catholics do

3290
02:02:37,250 --> 02:02:36,300
have a kind of mythological mindset that

3291
02:02:39,950 --> 02:02:37,260
I think

3292
02:02:42,050 --> 02:02:39,960
that leaves us sort of receptive to this

3293
02:02:43,430 --> 02:02:42,060
sort of thing right and I'm not saying

3294
02:02:46,669 --> 02:02:43,440
that doesn't get out of hand with

3295
02:02:49,430 --> 02:02:46,679
Catholics too right oh sure yeah okay

3296
02:02:51,470 --> 02:02:49,440
but I do I do think I do think that I

3297
02:02:53,810 --> 02:02:51,480
mean just think of it like so

3298
02:02:55,370 --> 02:02:53,820
you know my children grew up with

3299
02:02:56,810 --> 02:02:55,380
December 6 as the feast of Saint

3300
02:02:59,149 --> 02:02:56,820
Nicholas and like I know like other

3301
02:03:01,129 --> 02:02:59,159
Christians too but like so they they had

3302
02:03:03,109 --> 02:03:01,139
no problem with like and not just Santa

3303
02:03:05,629 --> 02:03:03,119
Claus but an extra elf coming to the

3304
02:03:07,129 --> 02:03:05,639
house right like leaving things right

3305
02:03:09,530 --> 02:03:07,139
like they you know they've they've they

3306
02:03:11,870 --> 02:03:09,540
grew up in a very Enchanted world right

3307
02:03:13,370 --> 02:03:11,880
and you know so I think any Catholic

3308
02:03:15,410 --> 02:03:13,380
anyone raised Catholic yourself too he's

3309
02:03:17,030 --> 02:03:15,420
like probably got a pretty good hangover

3310
02:03:18,830 --> 02:03:17,040
for the mystical from their from their

3311
02:03:22,250 --> 02:03:18,840
youth that makes a lot of sense

3312
02:03:23,810 --> 02:03:22,260
absolutely yeah well this has been such

3313
02:03:25,550 --> 02:03:23,820
a fun conversation I can't believe how

3314
02:03:26,990 --> 02:03:25,560
fast it went I've been really having a

3315
02:03:28,609 --> 02:03:27,000
great time yeah

3316
02:03:30,169 --> 02:03:28,619
um for anybody who's listening anything

3317
02:03:35,990 --> 02:03:30,179
that

3318
02:03:37,310 --> 02:03:36,000
sounded interesting to you please go

3319
02:03:39,790 --> 02:03:37,320
follow up

3320
02:03:42,350 --> 02:03:39,800
um do the reading

3321
02:03:43,609 --> 02:03:42,360
exactly it's it's this is such a fun

3322
02:03:45,229 --> 02:03:43,619
Rabbit Hole to go down there's a reason

3323
02:03:46,430 --> 02:03:45,239
you know we decided to come back and do

3324
02:03:47,930 --> 02:03:46,440
this again

3325
02:03:49,189 --> 02:03:47,940
um but Jim thank you so much and can and

3326
02:03:51,410 --> 02:03:49,199
tell everybody where they can find you

3327
02:03:53,330 --> 02:03:51,420
and how they can find your work uh okay

3328
02:03:56,209 --> 02:03:53,340
you can find probably your best bet for

3329
02:03:58,250 --> 02:03:56,219
finding me is on Twitter in terms of if

3330
02:04:00,709 --> 02:03:58,260
you want to say nasty things to me right

3331
02:04:03,770 --> 02:04:00,719
uh say what am I on Twitter I'm JD

3332
02:04:06,050 --> 02:04:03,780
Madden 3 on Twitter or I think

3333
02:04:08,270 --> 02:04:06,060
I'm following you on Twitter so you can

3334
02:04:09,950 --> 02:04:08,280
find me that way too yeah absolutely.com

3335
02:04:12,109 --> 02:04:09,960
is my website and I have a lot of my

3336
02:04:14,149 --> 02:04:12,119
papers and lectures about other stuff up

3337
02:04:16,310 --> 02:04:14,159
there and I have a sub stack I think

3338
02:04:17,390 --> 02:04:16,320
it's just Jim Madden's newsletter but

3339
02:04:20,750 --> 02:04:17,400
maybe we can put a link up to that

3340
02:04:21,770 --> 02:04:20,760
absolutely description for sure yeah I

3341
02:04:22,430 --> 02:04:21,780
appreciate it

3342
02:04:24,470 --> 02:04:22,440
um

3343
02:04:26,870 --> 02:04:24,480
absolutely it's been an absolute honor

3344
02:04:27,950 --> 02:04:26,880
Kelly it really has and so anytime you

3345
02:04:29,209 --> 02:04:27,960
want to talk about

3346
02:04:31,550 --> 02:04:29,219
um if you want to have a conversation

3347
02:04:34,250 --> 02:04:31,560
with a ontologically promiscuous

3348
02:04:35,990 --> 02:04:34,260
philosopher I am available so I love

3349
02:04:38,200 --> 02:04:36,000
that so much I absolutely will take you

3350
02:04:45,030 --> 02:04:38,210
up on that thanks Jim

3351
02:05:03,410 --> 02:04:45,040
[Music]